Author Topic: Not a fan...  (Read 3589 times)

Panpiper

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Not a fan...
« on: May 15, 2015, 11:35:29 AM »
I was a HUGE fan of the first Star Ruler. It had the best ship design system I have even seen in a space game. Many other aspects of the game were perhaps less than best, but they were quite serviceable. So buying Star Ruler 2 was a no brainer.

The new ship build system strikes me as a major step backwards, retreating into the age old standby of standard module placement in predefined hull classes, exactly the same old tired system of virtually every other 4X game. However that retreat from design excellence is NOT why I am not a fan.

It was a couple of months ago that I bought the game. I still have not bothered to actually play the game. I started the tutorial way back and got a good look at the colony development system. I found myself SO NOT a fan of that system that I simply exited the tutorial, never to play the game. Today, months later, not remembering why I had not played, I booted up the game again and restarted the tutorial. A few moments later, I remembered how the colony development worked, and exited the game.

I am sure there will be those who insist that I should "give it a chance", but I have zero desire to do so. This colony development system is so utterly abstract and has so little bearing bearing on any sort of reality that it doesn't just break my suspension of disbelief, it utterly twists the genre right out of my world. It's as if I have to play a game of tetris or checkers any time I want to develop my colonies. I want to play a 4X game, not a game of tetris or checkers.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 02:51:21 PM by Panpiper »

dalolorn

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Re: Not a fan...
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2015, 12:29:44 PM »
I sense a great redundancy in the forums, as if someone posted twice when once would have gotten the message across just fine... :P

Panpiper

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Re: Not a fan...
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2015, 12:49:31 PM »
Maybe other people are different. Generally I read one forum or another, rarely both. In this case I wanted to make sure my disappointment was heard by anyone who was in a position to affect the future development of the franchise. I am willing to give Star Ruler 3 a shot, if they do a 180. Both ship design and colony development took a very big step in the wrong direction in Star Ruler 2.

Thy Reaper

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Re: Not a fan...
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2015, 01:03:05 PM »
Maybe other people are different. Generally I read one forum or another, rarely both. In this case I wanted to make sure my disappointment was heard by anyone who was in a position to affect the future development of the franchise. I am willing to give Star Ruler 3 a shot, if they do a 180. Both ship design and colony development took a very big step in the wrong direction in Star Ruler 2.

There will almost certainly not be another sequel.

dalolorn

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Re: Not a fan...
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2015, 02:21:07 PM »
There will almost certainly not be another sequel.

Quoted for emphasis. The studio's in trouble right now, as can be seen on the Steam side of the forums.

And in the unlikely (based on current data) event that there is another sequel, it's unlikely that it'll immediately follow SR2. Assuming they manage to stay in operation, something I hope will be the case, it's more probable that they'll move away from that for a while before making SR3.

Brigadon

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Re: Not a fan...
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2015, 01:26:59 AM »
Quote
The new ship build system strikes me as a major step backwards, retreating into the age old standby of standard module placement in predefined hull classes, exactly the same old tired system of virtually every other 4X game. However that retreat from design excellence is NOT why I am not a fan.

You clearly have not actually played the game. The ship design system is one of the most freeform I have ever interacted with.

Obviously there are predetermined 'hulls', but those are nothing more than what sort of 3d marker you use to look at the ships 'close in'. They are purely aesthetic, and five minutes in the ship designer would show you this.

As far as the actual ship design, the only 'hard markers' are the maximum internal space (which I seldom care about except on support ships) and the ship's 'size' which influences every raw statistic on the ship except speed. And 'size' is utterly free... something no other 4x I am aware of has access to. If you want to create a space station that is simply a bridge and a 12 hex torpedo launcher, yet is some 5000 in size (capable of wiping out some pretty scary fleets) the only thing stopping you is your creativity and how much money you are making.

As far as the freeform colony development, it is a system designed to take some colony micromanagement out of the equation IF YOU DESIRE IT. You can still choose to make much of the colony development manual with megacities, science buildings, and factories, but it behooves you to set aside a few lumps of land undeveloped in order to let private industry make use of all of your imports. This is not a poor design decision, in fact it is a creative one.

If you don't care to even give the game a try, That is your loss, but for many other 4x players your claims are spurious and supported only by ignorance, and it's rather poor form to come on the forums and gripe about problems that don't exist in a game you haven't even played.

Edit- I just realized that there are hacked versions of this game out there that use much older pre-alpha versions, and they may have contained earlier versions of the ship building system.
If this happens to be your problem, I can understand your confusion, while at the same time having absolutely zero sympathy whatsoever.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 01:43:17 AM by Brigadon »

dalolorn

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Re: Not a fan...
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2015, 04:16:58 AM »
Edit- I just realized that there are hacked versions of this game out there that use much older pre-alpha versions, and they may have contained earlier versions of the ship building system.
If this happens to be your problem, I can understand your confusion, while at the same time having absolutely zero sympathy whatsoever.

Quoted for emphasis. It's been nearly half a year since ship construction had predefined hull shapes. (Or maybe more...?)

That being said: So that's why I kept seeing so many version mismatches after 1.0.2 released...

Brigadon

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Re: Not a fan...
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2015, 07:50:09 AM »
Ouch. No sympathy for people that are unwilling to spend 20 bucks.

It's like... someone that steals a car taking it to the dealership to get the steering repaired.

I have no problem with people that pirate AAA games. But there's a special place in hell for people that gank the hard work of guys who cannot even use the profits from their game to pay rent.

Panpiper

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Re: Not a fan...
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2015, 09:49:34 AM »
I paid full price for this game. I've never pirated a game (or anything for that matter) in my life, something probably few can claim.

When I talk about "ship design", I am NOT talking about creating 'pretty' shapes, I am referring to selecting the components and systems that go into the ship that define it's abilities and handicaps within the game. Pre-defined hull sizes with fixed slots for pre-defined equipment modules is the same old system that has been used for decades. Space Empires 4 was the pinnacle of this fifteen years ago. Changing the names and shapes does not make for a new approach. Star Ruler 1 made significant strides away from this tired paradigm, whereas this edition appears to be a step backwards.

Firgof

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Re: Not a fan...
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2015, 10:45:46 AM »
Quote
Star Ruler 1 made significant strides away from this tired paradigm, whereas this edition appears to be a step backwards.
It used to require you to build within a predefined hull - but that was a thing that went away a long time ago.

The only difference between SR1 and SR2 in ship design is we allow your subsystems to be even smaller than they were in 1 and you have more control over their exact size.  SR1's default hull had a 15 space limit (with subsystems able to occupy down to 0.12 or up to 4.0 space), SR2's hulls have an internal space limit as well; the only difference is in the numbers we use.

There are no predefined hulls in either game.  The idea of a hull, yes, and space limitations, sure - but neither game restricts the actual shape of your ship.  SR2 is more restrictive on where you can put things (e.g. weapons must be able to fire outwards without colliding with another subsystem, engines must face left and have nothing blocking their thrust - exception: graviton) but doesn't restrict the overall shape.

The main difference between SR1 and SR2 in subsystem/components is that SR1 was both more restrictive and expansive.  SR2 takes a moderative approach - we hardly restrict the player and try to insure that the design system itself is abusable - but we have specifically avoided allowing things like invincible ships, undefeatable stations, and uncapturable planets this time about in the game balance.  Support ships are more limited than flagships, which is a distinction that does not exist in SR1, but nothing is stopping you from making a fleet of nothing but flagships but your budget.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 11:05:37 AM by Firgof »
"Now it will punish you"

dalolorn

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Re: Not a fan...
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2015, 01:41:39 AM »
When I talk about "ship design", I am NOT talking about creating 'pretty' shapes, I am referring to selecting the components and systems that go into the ship that define it's abilities and handicaps within the game. Pre-defined hull sizes with fixed slots for pre-defined equipment modules is the same old system that has been used for decades. Space Empires 4 was the pinnacle of this fifteen years ago. Changing the names and shapes does not make for a new approach. Star Ruler 1 made significant strides away from this tired paradigm, whereas this edition appears to be a step backwards.

Um. Yeah. Your constant rambling about the ship designer being something it IS NOT does not help your case. Aside from what Firgof said, if you feel that there aren't enough subsystems to choose from, there's a variety of mods on the Workshop (alternatively, GitHub - look at https://github.com/Darloth or https://github.com/Alarcarr/ABEMMOD) that add a considerable amount of diversity to them and various other aspects of the game.

Brigadon

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Re: Not a fan...
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2015, 09:20:38 AM »
I paid full price for this game. I've never pirated a game (or anything for that matter) in my life, something probably few can claim.

Pre-defined hull sizes with fixed slots for pre-defined equipment modules.


In light of the latter comment, which is utterly false and is known to be utterly false by anyone who has purchased the game, The former comment is demonstrably false.

dalolorn

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Re: Not a fan...
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2015, 04:40:07 AM »
In light of the latter comment, which is utterly false and is known to be utterly false by anyone who has purchased the game, The former comment is demonstrably false.

That, too.