Author Topic: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course  (Read 5514 times)

YAHG

  • Guest
This Primer is intended for someone who knows the basics of
the game who wants to be more familiar with the aspects of
game play and strategy as they relate specifically to
multiplayer. This covers the slang used in the primer
itself, the basic economic facts of the game, the racial
traits, the social policies, building up your homeworld,
scouting, initial expansion, overall economic growth, attack
openings, and game progression strategies.

This Primer focuses on a strategy centered around using a
quickly growing economy to fuel your tech and military,
while maintaining the flexibility to react to the enemy and
take advantage of weaknesses in his development.

I hope you enjoy this Primer and that it will bring more of
you out there and into Multiplayer pickup games, which I
feel are the most fun way to play this game.

See you out there,

YAHG
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 03:54:23 PM by YAHG »

YAHG

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Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2011, 02:23:31 PM »
Terms and Slang:

Buildings:

Shipyard = Y
Spaceport = P
Metal Mining Facility = M
Electronics Factory = E
Advanced Components Factory = A
City = C
Farm = F
Galactic Capitol = GCap
Planetary Capitol = PCap
Science Facility = T
General Goods Factory = G
Luxuries Factory = L

Materials:

Metals = M
Electronics = E
Advanced Parts = A

PRO = A World built up and speced for raw balanced resource
output and ship construction. There is no default governer
that will make this for you as the default Balanced world
gives you tech and the Economic world deletes all shipyards.
You will need to manually que or use a custom loaded que on
these worlds. My strategy hinges on these worlds as my troop
centers and my economic backbone. Modifying the que order as
situation demands can greatly effect performance.

Push = Leveling a specific technology repeatedly instead of
using the Autoresearcher

Wiping Blueprints = Opening the blueprint window, using
obselete all, then using import the ">" button then
importing all

Pulling = Using the ">" button on the blue print window
and importing all to overwrite all changes in your blue
prints and grab the new ones you have unlocked, or moving
objects around in a build que.

Raw Size = Internal design size (.25-4) * ship scale

"X" Colony ship = A Colony ship with a building rating of
"X" regardless of ship scale

Bussard, Straight, Ion (ship type) = Ship engine type either
Bussard Jet, Thruster, or Ion Engine.

Grey (ship) = Ships that have been damaged and are floating
in space, are grey and unable to respond to commands, slowly
degrade over time until they are destroyed at 0 HP.

AJTP = "Automatically Colonize Planet" useful for
selecting and forgetting colony targets without filling
systems.


Basic Economic Rules:

Physical contruction resources come in three types or levels
each with thier own level of refinement. At level 1 you have
Metals, level 2 is Electronics, and level 3 is Advanced
Parts. 

Metals:

Metals can be made straight up and require no refinement.
They can be made with or without Ore(a resource on planets
and asteroids) or salvaged from greyed out ships, but are
less efficient without ore. 

With ore : 100% production
With out ore (planet side only): 20% production
Salvage : 1 Metal per ship HP salvaged

Electronics:

Electronics require metals, each unit of Electronics
requires 2 units of Metal and something to refine the
ingredients like an Electronics Factory or a Shipboard
Electronics Fabricator.

2M >(conversion tool)> 1E

Advanced Parts:

Advanced Parts require 1 unit of Metal and 1 unit of
Electronics and something to refine the ingredients like an
Advanced Parts Factory or a Shipboard Advanced Parts
Fabricator.

1M + 1E >(conversion tool)> 1A
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 05:30:43 PM by YAHG »

YAHG

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Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2011, 02:23:43 PM »
Racial Traits:

Biology:

Natural Terraformers(0): When you colonize a planet all the
conditions (if any) are removed. 

This trait is really helpful as you only have to look at
planet slot count and wether its in a useful spot for a
colony. This saves you when that 27 slot planet in that
cruicial choke point that you want a major early PRO World
on is both unstable and has dense flora (ouch!). Granted
this trait will also axe those geothermal vents + rich ore
deposit planets. Taking this trait will make it a lot easier
to develope your economy and technology quickly and reliably
each game, I suggest you take it.

Fast Metabolism(+1): Your population grows twice as fast,
but also takes twice as much food to maintain.

OMG chocodiles OMG!

This trait is amazing!

Your population grows twice as fast! seriously, twice as
fast! You can run shipyards in the middle of your build que
on PRO worlds, this means you can run academics as much as
you want without hurting your PRO worlds after the 3rd city
or so.

Yes you need double food, but food is easy to make
especially with the help of "Green Thumb" (another racial
trait down the list).

Dextrous(-2): Empire wide repair rates are 33% higher.

This trait is a whole 2 points, which is a ton for only 33%
repair boost, maybe if it was 100% boost or 50% for 1 point,
but 2 whole points for 33% is kinda extreme. Feel free to
take it, but this is on the crumy side, especially with how
few good opportunities there are to get racial points.

Naturally Euphoric(-1): Your population consumes half the
normal luxury goods. Cannot use Naturally Depressed(+1) or
Eusocial Society(+1).

This isnt bad but after you get one good lux world out you
are good for a while on lux (if you use balanced gov on your
mid range planets you will get plenty of lux with just one
or two devoted lux worlds in your whole empire as the econ
tech kicks in with larger and larger empires). This trait
doesn't really give you anything crucial for your one
point, you will still need goods production since even at
half consumption you would still need alot of lux to go
straight lux. If you are going goods and lux, you would open
with goods anyways as you dont want to waste all the slots
early lux would take.

Naturally Depressed(+1): Your population consumes double the
normal luxury goods. Cannot use Naturally Euphoric(-1) or
Eusocial Society(+1)!

This one actually isnt that bad. You can still use goods
with short work week for a constant 19% positive mood
modifier pre lux, which your trait wont even hurt. All you
need to counter this is to double up your lux world drop
when that time comes.

The doubled up lux drop isn't that harsh a penalty to have
this trait instead of Eusocial since if you really wanted
you could run Capitalism with this trait (that is a bigger
bonus in GA mod as Capitalism is free in that).

Society:

Capitalism(-1): Empire wide mining rate +50% Ore used per
metal +100%. Cannot use Eusocial Society(+1)

Not a horrible trait, but its still only metal. After early
game most people run a gigantic metals surplus. I personally
try to balance my worlds more to what my late game needs are
and I still have a crazy metal surplus later.

Good things about this trait is that you can build up your
production buildings early game faster with this as you need
way more metal than anything else for your initial buildings
especially your physical construction resource buildings.

The doubled ore usage isn't as big a deal as you might
think. I for one have yet to run out of planet side ore in a
multiplayer game with default gain curves and starting
tech.

Weakness for this trait is that you cannot use Eusocial
Society so you will need to make goods at the very least to
avoid the massive negative mood multiplier.

Slave Labor(-1): Empire wide labor generation +100%.

I want to directally quote what I said for Fast Metabolism
so you can scroll up and read those first two statements and
scroll back down. 

I'll wait...

Welcome back!

This trait is one of the best (-1) traits in the game. Its
actually two traits in one, you can go straight up with it
and get double labor or you can turn on "Academics
Campaign" for the 10% to production resources and get
effectivly regular labor.

Just take this trait already so we can go on to the next
one!

Eusocial Society(+1): Population Happyness is always 0, and
the mood modifier is locked at 100%. Your population does
not consume goods or luxuries and they are removed from your
options to build, but not from captured planets. Cannot use
Capitalism (-1), Naturally Euphoric(-1), or Naturally
Depressed(+1)
.

A very nice trait to have. Even if it didn't have an almost
free point I would still suggest you take it. Not having to
worry about goods or luxuries helps you avoid a major
developemental obstacle that can sometimes sneak past your
radar, the stealthy goods crash!

There is a decent downside to this trait, late game when
other people are in infinite lux terrirtory and are SWW+TB
with enough G/L to support it forever, they will be riding a
cool 70% econ boost. Once you can learn to tame the goods
tiger it might be in your interest to start riding it.
Personally I go either way with this or "Naturally
Depressed", taking it while you master the rest of your
econ is not a bad play at all as its one less thing to worry
about.

Mentallity:

Rigid(+1): Civic Acts cannot be used.

This is one of those traits that just isn't worth what it
will do to you as the game goes on. Civic acts will save you
from so many bad situations and even allow you to construct
your economy for late game and put a patch on it early when
you need metal, a little later when you need adv parts, and
then electric if you mess up and get suckered into too much
adv parts or are waiting on electronic fabrication to be
unlocked. If you run with goods/lux you will be hurt very
very badly by this trait.

If you really need this (+1) then seriously reconsider what
you are spending that point on and wether you can work
around not having it. This is one of the worst two traits in
the game. If it was (+2) it might be worth it but at (+1)
its just too harsh.

Run away from this trait. You were warned.

Efficient(-1): Empire wide, all cargo space is tripled.

Very nice, very very nice indeed. This is one of the good
guys, triple ammo lifetime, triple flight time.

I am not sure if this gives you triple charge or not, either
way is fine with me.

The main downside to this trait is triple cargo space on
planets as this triples the time a crashed resource on a
production world takes to begin export again, but this is a
small price to pay for the bonuses.

This is one of the main traits that I miss when I join a
multiplayer game and take over for the AI.

Scorched Earth(-2): When you loose a planet all the
structures on it are destroyed immeadiatly.

(-2) is kind of a lot for this trait. For how good
chembombers are, this is probably more of a (0) trait on
balance or maybe a (-1). If you roll this trait then not
only do you have to come up with (+2) elsewhere but post AM
gens your empire can be easily wiped back further and
further by pushing chemistry and shoving triple (or even
quadruple) external Ion engines + Rack*Chem + heavilly
armored/shielded suiciders at you. The scales required for
that type of assault to work are small enough that you wont
be able to stop the horde with single target weapons without
a fleet in every border system, leaving you on defense. If
you went with station defense you would need massive AoE
stations on all your planets and they could just counter
that huge cost to you by swapping the rack mounts for
targetting scanners on thier suicide chem bombers.

Chemical bombers are enough of a threat without this trait
making them that much stronger. When you destroy planets
with regular weapons, you arn't left with that many
buildings. You might not be able to stop the chem bombers if
someone keeps at them hard as the game goes on but if you do
a build on all order for mini colonies as you see the post
AM gen chembombers come you will just resettle them
afterwards no big deal.

This trait not only makes chembombers a much greater
threat it also is a (-2). The one plus side to this trait is
that they cant chembomber you off your planets and take all
your worlds, but when you don't have those same worlds and
can't take them back without rebuilding them, that (-2)
cost will not be much consolation.

Logistically Inept(+1): Build costs empire wide +10%.

Not horrible, but there are worse ways to get your (+1).
This trait is going to slow you down but it won't break
your back. Look closely at what your getting with the that
(+1).

AI Paranoia(+1): Can not use Computers of Quantum
Computers.

This trait is the plague. Stay far away from this one. Your
late game tightly balanced designs can no longer use the
glory that is the Computer subsystem. Be ready for
humongeous space requirements for control. Those AM gens
take a lot of control, granted they will be smaller but
those coolant sytems on those energy weapons we all love are
gonna end up taking alot more off your ship designs due to
space required to control the power they will be needing.

I have never seen a good use for Quantum Computers. I won't
be a Quantum Aethiest, but I havn't seen any evidence to
believe in them.

Hello my screen name is YAHG, and I am a Quantum Agnostic.

Hello YAHG.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 07:31:05 PM by YAHG »

YAHG

  • Guest
Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2011, 02:23:53 PM »
Background:

Developed Empire(-2): Start with two colonized fully
developed planets in your home system. Cannot use Fledgling
Empire(-2)
.

Well you won't get a 1 planet wonder of a home system, but
sadly you will get a mid grade planet out of the balanced
governer. Since you wont be getting Fledgling Empire with
this one you will have the two science facilities on your
homeworld and usually at least one maybe two on this one,
you will have 50-100% more tech off the starting line.

This early tech lead wont last too long but if you scored
two extra science facilities on your second world then you
would be rocking 1k tech rate out of the gate and could push
that first level of metallurgy out in 1 minute.

This trait is expensive, really expensive. (-2) is a whole
lot especially when it knocks out Fledgling Empire. You
might be able to leaverage this early lead into something
that lasts the whole game, but I would put my money ont he
guy with the Fledgling Empire and the 4 racial point swing
across the rest of his racial traits.

Bustling Homeworld(-3): Homeworld has 10 extra slots on it
and half the ore. Cannot use Fledgling Empire(+2)

If you are gonna go developed or bustling, you might as well
go for bustling. When you are rocking your population
multipliers to the limit those 10 slots will up you from 25
to 35. If you are running a 6 port on your 25 world (you
kind of need it if your gonna run straight production to
keep from getting clogged at low level as you only get 140
trade per port at lvl 1 econ and the GCap gives you 1250)
you would have ((25-6-1)/2)^2 or 81 Theoretical max
production rating based on spryre2000's econ models. If you
have 35 slots and run 9 ports (you dont need as many extra
ports as your marginal ports are only against your lvl 1
production resource factories and not your GCap) you would
have a ((35-9-1)/2)^2 or 156.25 rating, a 156.25/81 or 93%
non GCap production bonus. This is roughly 10 A 30ish E and
maybe 100 M, this is a about another 25 world running
2A4E3M9C1F4P1Y at tech level 1 in metallurgy.

(-3) is a very high price for those 10 slots, especially
since again like with developed, you can't run Fledgling
Empire in all its Glory.

Fledgling Empire(+2): Your homeworld starts with just the
Galactic Capitol. Can not use Developed Empire(-2) or
Bustling Homeworld(-3).

The best (+2), and the easiest two racial points to get. You
can load up Y7C4M3E2AF6P and have it done before the game
clock reaches 2m as long as you have Fast Metabolitism.

The cost is less than 2m at the game start and the ability
to use developed or bustling, but for (+2) this is a steal.
This is a probably a (+1) trait, so at (+2) its a steal!

Strip Mined(-1): Your homeworld starts with no Ore but you
get 5% of the missing ore in metals at game start.

Shame its just metals and not a split. In the simple
resource mod this is the best trait, but in VG I think there
are better ways to spend your precious points. Taking this
would rob you of one of the great (-1)'s out there or force
you to take a harsh hit with one of those crueler (+1)'s I
have reccomended you avoid.

If you do take it, you are gonna want to rework your
homeworld and first few world's econ to have much less M
production, basically just enough to make E and A, with one
max metal world with the 1F+MCMCP pattern around world 10
ish to help you out when metal crashes. You will also need
to tech a little harder so that your metallurgy can catch
with that metal world. After your first metal world build as
if you didn't have this trait as your metals will be
crashing soon.

This trait can also be used with the econ you would use
without it speced for late game as you wont need to ride
metal focus or flash metal mandate in emergencies early-late
early game. Doing it this way won't push the edge of the
curve as hard but you also wont take the metal smack as
badly if you mess up your timing to start making metals.

Either way you go with using this trait, I suggest dragging
the space ports towards the front of the ques so you can
pull the metals out of the GB faster as there will be tons
of them early.

Indepted(+2): For the first 20m of game time you loose half
the resources you export to the GB.

This trait was made for the Hauler economy people. (+2) is
huge, but the Hauler economy seems to be really slow to me.
I know Volley and Coloyan swear by it (still waiting for
them to stop doing it), but it seems to put them at a
disadvantage they then have to make up for later in the
game.

If you are Hauler econ this is your trait. Use stockpiling
protocol to keep them from exporting until 95% capacity. If
you can use the Haulers well you can probably keep them
below 95% for that first 20m. If you make it out of the 20m
without a huge blow to your comparitive situation then you
earned those 2 points. I know I can't run Hauler econ, if
you can and are going to then there are parts of this guide
that wont apply to your strategy.

Technology:

Crystalline Deposits(-1): You start the game with Shield
tech unlocked and get +15% to shield modulation.

You don't need shield tech at game start. Building a a
fleet early will cripple your economy and or tech. Granted
you could incorperate shields into your no/low tech designs
and make more resilient orbital defense vs pirates.

The main bonus to this tech is the +15% shield modulation. I
don't know the formula for sure but the most logical shield
modulation formula is:

Chance to absorb attack = shield hitpoints/max shield
hitpoints*shield modulation

With a max chance to absorb of 100%

With the 15% boost this gives 100% to absorb at 87% shields.

Shields might also work individually per generator.

I don't like this trait, I put in the same category as
strip mined. Wiegh your options with this one, what could
you have instead, what is this trait costing you somewhere
else.

Engine Catalysts(-1): Engine thrust +50% Engine Fuel
consumption +100%.

This is a great trait, thing is that you get the thrust
bonus on the Bussard engines and they dont use any fuel.
Your bussard scouts, colonizers and warships are all 50%
better accel with no hit.

Everything is 50% better accel. You will have double engine
fuel use, but if you are running efficient then you get a
net of 3/2 or 150% engine based flight time. With the
two together you basically get +50% accel and +50% engine
flight time as well as -66% generator fuel use.

This trait is needed to make bussard colonizers feasible.
Bussard colonizers can easily cost less than 50% of the adv
parts of Colonizers speced for speed as well as a small
electronics and metals savings.

This is the trait I miss most of all when I join into a
ongoing game and take over for an AI slot.

Natural Green Thumb(-1): Start the game with Biology
unlocked and at lvl 2 (farms are also at lvl 2)

This trait is huge. Not only do you get lvl 2 farms from the
start but you get biology unlocked. The links to bio from
General science are 100k each, so without a decent tech rate
or a lucky free unlock off GenSci you will be hard pressed
to unlock bio before you hit 5-10KTech.

Chances are you will need to push Bio before that to fix
your food from time to time as you expand as quickly as I
suggest. This trait will fix the doubled food cost of Fast
Meta and allow you to do 1 Farm per world(anti blockade
farm) plus 1 farm world for the whole game.

Fast Meta plus this trait even out and work well together.

Anchient Ruins(-1): Start with a random normally locked tech
unlocked and at lvl 3.

This can go from awesome to nearly useless.

Nearly useless:

Mega Construction: Slightly cheaper large ships you can't
afford now anyways.

Gravatics: Nothing.

Sensors: without computers its just analyzer, basically
nothing.

Marginal:

Stealth: Never seemed useful at all.

Nanotechonology: Without armor lvl 5 you get nothing and
armor is expensive to unlock early.

Good:

Energy weapons: No transition from ammo weapons to the laser
sweet spot, same damage as rails at same lvl but the power
will cost you big no/lowtech.

Missle Weapons: Lvl3 Missle rack and boarding party. If for
some reason they also got free computer unlock and used
computers on all thier ships then you could use mini boarder
scouts and steal all thier colonies as they entered the
systems, but that will probably never happen. The missle
rack is nice for range and you can push this to lvl 5+ for
the torpedos to do an early remnant clear.

Armor: Nothing unlocked parts wise, but your armor is twice
as thick as default with no mass increase, those orbitals
can take a few more pirate shots, but this isnt really gonna
help you much as by the time you can afford to attack with
ships in large groups to do more than raid or rush you can
afford to unlock armor.

Lucky Draw:

Sociology: This one makes your tech triangle into a tech
square, worth the levels of bio you will need more often.

Chemistry: Can you say 10m bussard chem assault to his home?
If you are successful and also send 1 mini colony with you
to snag his capitol then your econ wont even take a hit as
you will end up doubling up on his econ. This is a risky
move that can pay off big and will make Volley break his
keyboard with his forehead if you pull this off vs him. 

I am not responsible for what happens to Volley's
keyboard.

Special Cases:

Biology without Green Thumb: Better than Green Thumb, but
you'll still need the safety farms, you just can delay
leveling bio a bit.

Shields without Crystals: Probably better, you have double
strength shields now compared, just worse mitigation. You
can recover the shield level but never the mitigation so
you just push the boost earlier at the expense of later
power.

Spatial Dynamics with Remnant Wreckage: I do not know if this
combos or not but if it does you would start the game with
lvl 6 jump drives. I am not sure how you would find the
power and control without computers and more than basic
power generators, so your jumping ships would still have to
be really big. Maybe a jump carrier with chem bombers or
Muon harrass and deny colonies until you get to chem
bombers. You would also have lvl 1 quantum compressor, but
at lvl 1 I don't think its worth the control/power since
you will have the same problem as with your jump drives.

Remnant Wreckage(-2): Start the game with lvl 3 jumpdrives.

This trait does not unlock Spatial Dynamics so you should
still get jumpdrives leveling once they wouldave been
unlocked. This should give you 1.4^3 or 2.74 times more
powerful jumpdrives on whatever level you wouldave normally
had. Keep in mind that jump drives cost tons of power and
control, both of which are space expensive before AM gens
and Computers.

This trait is probably too expensive to be worth what it
gives you, especially early game.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 07:45:19 PM by YAHG »

YAHG

  • Guest
Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2011, 02:24:10 PM »
Love your Civics!

Social Policies:

Short work week: -25 labor production and a boost to mood
independant of goods and lux but not eusocial. No Forced
Labor.

This is an always on civic when you dont have Eusocial. With
enough goods to keep them at 0 mood this gives you a 119%
mood multiplier. It only costs 25% labor, but labor is also
effected by mood so the real labor cost is 100-(1.18*.75) or
11% labor for 19% M,E and A (G,L and F are not effected by
the mood multiplier) at full lux the boost is only 10% so
the labor cost goes up to 18%. At no goods flow the
situation is plus 7% but it is 7% on a 70% multiplier so its
still effectivly 10% boost at a 18% effective labor cost.
All three situations are a much better deal than Academics
Campaign and Acadamics is still a good deal until you start
swiming in loot.

Leave this on.


Forced Labor: -20% Labor, but Mood has no effect on Labor.
No short Work Week.

I have never used this, can't say anything about it. I use
slaves so I just drop academics if I need extra labor or use
Work Ethic in a blockade with no farm emergency but I try to
stay out of that situation as it is very bleak.

Work ethic Campaign: +50% Labor -10% M -10% E -10% A

No so awsome, labor is easy to get, and if you are running
slaves, you  wont need a ship yard to meet labor needs on
tech and farm worlds anyways. If you need labor in a pinch
maybe flash it.

Academics Campaign: -50% Labor +10% M +10% E + 10% A

With Slaves you can run this and break even on labor and
ride the 10% econ boost to jumpstart that econ. Remember
this plus Short Work Week is 1.19*1.1 or 1.31, 31% econ
boost if you can hold onto goods. you can do this until you
hit infinte lux. This plus the 1.7 from Short work week, tax
break, and infinite lux is 1.7*1.1=1.87 or 87% econ boost. 

Thats basically 2 lvls of metallurgy, stick a fork in that
econ baby.

Tax break: Increases the happyness gained from luxuries but
increases luxuries and goods consumption by 50%.

This one is for when you have the lux pouring in. This
pushes you to the next level of multiplier. This with short
work week and the lux/goods to back them up gives you that
170% mood multiplier.

Stockpiling Protocol: Planetary Governers try to keep stocks
at 95% capacity instead of 50%

This is good with the Hauler Economy + Indepted trait to
sneak your resources by the GB tax. Other than that I have
yet to see a way to use it to my advantage. Piling up
resources with it to dump them into my bank later has yet to
seem like a good idea.

Economic Policies:

These come in metal, electronic, and advanced part

Focus (type):+50% (type) -35% Rest
Mandate (type):+100% (type) -90% rest

The focuses will patch you for a stretch while you wait for
your metalurgy to start giving you more metal than you need
without breaking your econ to far towards metals early for
example.

The Mandates will get you out of hard bind locks much
faster, more than twice the speed in some cases as the
demand for metals to make electronics goes down 90% when you
mandate metals. When you mandate Adv for too long it will
stall due to lack of elec and or Metal.

Mandates can also be cycled if you are in a really bad spot,
you will notice that in your empire economic report there is
a demand line. This is current planet demand to get to the
holding level (50% or 95%). In order to get to the holding
level you need to clear demand for that material in that
specific build que. If you have a increasing real surplus in
the GB in a category then you have all current que items for
that type satisfied.

When your economy is crashed badly you can mandate metals,
get to a metal surplus, mandate electronics, get to a
electronic surplus, mandate advanced parts, get to and
advanced parts surplus. By cycling though like this you are
finishing a single item on the majority of your worlds (some
worlds with very slow trade may not finish in the time that
you are cycling). This can help you get those few buildings
you really needed to dig yourself out of the hole you are
in.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 08:16:00 PM by YAHG »

YAHG

  • Guest
Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2011, 02:35:51 PM »
Homeworld Build up:

So you got your traits picked out and your starting your
game. This guide assumes that you have:

Natural Terraformers(0), Fast Metabolism(+1),
Eusocial/Depressed(+1), Slaves(-1), Efficient Storage(-1),
Fledgling Empire(+2), Green Thumb(-1), Engine
Catalysts(-1)
.

You start the game with just the GCap on your homeworld but
you got those 2 points so the quicker you dig out of the
hole you are in buildingwise the quicker your 2 points will
start working to get you a lead.

For Eusocial Que up: YCCCCCCCMMMMEEEAAFPPPPPP
For Depressed Que up: YCCCCCCMMMEEEAFGGPPPPPPP or
YCCCCCCMMMMEEEAFGGPPPPPP

In all these build ques the Shipyard -> City start gives you
mass population early in the que. The massive population,
which even with Fast Meta still takes time to fill to max
allows your ship yard to be on for more of your build que.
The ship yard has a lower worker priority than most
buildings so to keep the labor flowing early and fill your
world within the first 2m you need to keep it running as
much as you can by getting your population as early as you
can. The homeworld is a special case for cities first as you
already have the resouces present to build up quickly due to
the GCap. 

Exporting the 1250 resources from the GCap with lvl 1 space
ports takes a lot of slots. Together with what you can
produce aside from the GCap I find 6 ports is a good balance
overall. You will be choked a bit before you hit econ2 but
once you do you will be unlocked further and further until
the sociology*metalurgy overtakes econ.

The two depressed ques I gave you both give you the goods to
satisfy your homeworld and with the assumed short work week
on you will also be full on ports with both set ups. For the
6 port que you are blocked by about 200 resources, the 7
port is actually about even as you loose some production. It
depends on what you want to do out of the gate, are you
going go for PRO,Good/Farm,Pro,Pro,Tech,Good/Farm->PRO for a
heavier econ push with a little bit of tech delay, or more
of a Good/Farm,Tech->PRO to try to leverage your early tech
into a greater metalurgy boost. The tech route will unlock
your econ2 alot faster, so the choked ports are less of a
big deal; while the harder econ push would benifit more from
the extra port since you won't get econ2 in the first 5m.

The Eusocial que is my favorite personally as I prefer to
not muck around with goods/lux and push econ as far as I can
without nuetering my tech->econ conversion. It also chokes
on its own ports but you don't choke nearly as much and you
end up with 120 AdvParts instead of 110 with the Depressed
builds and 100 baseline. Early early game ADV and Elec are
the scarce resources. That extra 10-100 adv you can get out
of your homeworld is the platinum in your empire's
catalytic converter. You can get 200 adv parts off your
homeworld without focus/mandate but you will be gimping your
metal and electronics, its more of a strip mined or F+MCPMC
as first colony and let it go till its got enough onboard
metal production before your 2nd colony ship. 

Initial Scouting:

You can either scout before or after colonies. If you use
.001 Bussard scouts like I suggest, you are better off doing
them first. Just add (system count - 1) scouts to your
homeworld as it is building it's ramp up and you will see the
whole galaxy. Do not skimp on the scouts, the .001 Bussard
Scout does not cost that much time to make en mass even for
150 system games. The cost of not being able to see your
enemy take key systems and develope them and compete with
enemies blindly is far more than the cost of the scouts.
Scout the whole galaxy every game, never just part of it.

Home System States and Initial Development:

Depending on what your homesystem is looking like you will
have to adapt your initial start to match.

Case 1: Your system has 3 planets a good one with more than
20 slots and two mediocre ones with somewhere between 18 and
15 slots.

After you que up your scouts que up 3 of your bussard
colonies. As we are running effiecient it is even more
important to save adv parts early as it will take you 3
times as long to hit 50% adv stock on your HW and begin
exporting again. Your GB will stall while your build your
colonizers although you will start stocking up electronics
due to the cost balance of a bussard colonizer vs your metal
locked HW.

If you want to boost your initial colonizer build speed, put
the metal mandate civic on while they are building and take
it off when the que finishes. 

While bussard collinizers do not cost more metals than thier
thruster based cousins they are proportionally metal heavy.
The other thing is that the GCap is not effected by
mandates/mood multipliers/population multipliers. The order
that resources are produced and consumed in VG make it so
that if a construction needs metals, none of the planetside
metal production will be available for conversion into
higher order resources. The GCap does not convert resources
but generates them regardless of inputs, so while your
homeworld's electronics and adv parts facotories will be
inactive during colony ship building, your GCap will not be.
Since you will only be making metals you might as well rock
that metal mandate until your initial build que finishes.

Once your colonies are out I recommend a PRO,Tech,Farm order
for the good,bad,bad case.

You will need a farm pretty early so you can focus on PRO
worlds and leave thier farms for late que position and the
one tech world will keep your tech within striking distance
without breaking your econ and sucking away all your A+E.

If there is a nearby system with a 23+ world you might want
to consider using the ACTP command on it
and making 1 extra colonizer.

Either way you go I suggest dragging your ports behind the
YC opening on the first PRO world. This will multiply your
draw rate from the GB on that world letting it start
contributing to empire growth quicker. The sooner you can
get a secondary exporting source of A+E the better as each
time you colonize from your HW early your exports will be
halted for a while, the secondary and tiertiary PRO worlds
will help keep your constructions from stalling completely.

Thing to remember is that at econ1 your ports only trade at
140/s for a total with the PCap of 170/s on default sized
colony plants.If you don't pull forward the space ports and
leave them at end of que you can pull your GB slower but
into more developing planets at once. This is technically
slower than bursting out minimal colonies but does allow you
to do a 4->8->12 planet jump without too much trouble.

If you want to pull your solo Tech world along then renovate
the space port as available or build a second one. This will
put a much bigger high order resource demand on your GB but
will also let you be more tech heavy if you are thinking
more rush than overrun, or are playing a 1.35+ tech game.

Case 2: Home system is very poor and has 0-2 planets open of
mediocre quality.

Hopefully there are some other systems near by but even if
there are not, all is still not lost. A strong response to
this situation requires a larger initial colonizer run and
relies on longer travel times and slow pulling colonies to
mitigate your initial disadvantage.

Depending on how far away those systems are you want between
4-6 colonizers (6 is only if they are really far away). Use
the ACTP on your targets and aim for 23+ PRO worlds, a 20ish
Tech world, and a 16-18 Farm world. You might say why not
just go for the best with tech and farms as well, but you
really don't need that much farm and you don't want to
have to pay for all that tech before you really need it.
Tech worlds eat up a a decent chunk of resources as they
renovate and build up, and those resources after a certain
point can be more effectivly used making other resources.

In this case I wouldn't suggest dragging your star ports
forward as you want your resources working for you on planet
(as factories) instead of towards planet (as space ports)
since you will be spreading your GB across more worlds.

Case 3: Amazing homesystem with 3+ 23+ planets.

Go for 3 or 4 PRO worlds off the bat then Farm,Tech. Do
not waste a 19+ on a Farm world unless your start is so good
that you cant find a nearby mediocre world. Try to Farm
before tech if you can, as with HW->3PRO your food will
crash/drag.

When you are building your PRO in this case if you drag the
farms forward you can avoid a hard crash and keep your pop
multiplier from being forced below 1 due to food. You will
suffer a opportunity cost to production but you will avoid a
hard food crash.

You do not really want to be dragging more than 1 or 2 ports
forward on your PRO as once they make thier own metals they
don't stall nearly as often. Dragging a MEA set forward is
not a bad play as they will no longer hard stall and if you
drag a MEAF you will get a pretty stable baseline build up
at the cost of overall maximum buildup.

Your tech and farm will most likely be in a 2nd system. Try
to resist taking a 22+ for your tech as it is still really
expensive. If you want to tech harder in this case a good
play is to take 2 15-17 tech worlds and use YCF(rich
econ)/YFC(med econ)/FC(low econ/anti blockade) as thier
opener and neglect the port renovations as they ramp up. The
worse the planets you use the faster they will finish
building and start renovating.

Case Other: There are other cases for starting planets but
they are for the most part close to these ones. There can be
some really ugly starts in multiplayer that you just have to
pull yourself out of.

Governer Tech vs. Hard Que Tech:

Governer ques or just using governers has its ups and downs.
You won't have to manage as much but you can get unwanted
farms on your worlds if your food crashes.

Hard Ques require either a loaded que or a manual entry.
When you load ques up you can load up more than there are
slots available, much like in laggy multiplayer matches, and
once they fill up they will be cut from the que. If you save
a big tech que off a ringworld like YCFTTTCTTTT(CTTTT...) or
FCTTTCTTTT(CTTTT...) you can just load it on your tech
world, fix that first auto building if you have one and
forget it. The Hard Que Tech world will not mess around with
farms you might not want on your world. I highly recommend a
farm on each early tech world as when the blockade comes
your tech world will starve off and your tech can be cut off
suddenly. Having no tech and no way to push projectile
weapons to upgrade your planetary cannons can be a hard spot
to get out of.

You can solve most of the Tech Governers problems with a YCF
or a F start, as the food is now unlikly to crash on planet,
and any renovate all system orders will be caught before the
planet finishes initial build up.

Running a shipyard first on a tech world allows you to run
academic's program without slowing the tech world. If your
GB is crashing hard then the shipyard wont help much though
as the labor wont be slowing you.

"Production" Worlds:

Production Worlds make you your early game money quickly and
balanced towards what you will need for ship construction.
They are also able to construct onsite even in the midst of
blockades. The idea is to hit your resource ratio as closely
as you can, with the highest output (see spryre2000's post
on breaking your economy
) while also using space ports to
give you full export across most feasible tech levels, and
thus allowing double effective build speed with imports as
GB allows. They are supposed to be the key worlds that you
use to make everything else from.

Saving build ques will help you save alot of in game time in
the same way that importing ship designs does. They also
help you get outputs more balanced towards what you want.

Loaded saved ques do not have to be shorter than the
available slots, when your planet runs out of slots it just
cuts the next building in que if the planet itself is full for buildings.

Example PRO ques: (These are speced for the ratios of
resources that I tend to use, they may not be what your ship
building style needs)

Pro23 2A4E3M8C1F4P1Y: YCMCMCMCECECEAAFPPP
Pro24 2A4E3M9C1F4P1Y: YCMCMCMCECECECAAFPPP
Pro25 2A4E3M9C1F4P1Y: YCMCMCMCECECECEAAFPPP

Labeling them as per what the give you when they finish
makes it easier to pick them as you don't have to remember
what they are, just your personal abbreviations.

These ques are speced to help thier own construction. Since
A is blocked by lack of E+M and E is blocked by lack of M by
default.

In the default M is first as M is a first order production
resource and it is also the greatest or equal in cost to A
and E in all buildings except the Planetary Shield
Generator. M also has the greatest volume per factory by
far. When you balance your worlds toward your late game
resource ratio, early game you will tend to be short on
metals. Building M first or at least one M first will keep
your colonies unstuck more often than not even if the GB is
stalled. The M you have and make onsite will also always be
flowing as it needs no input other than population and its
input of food, this is the important part.

A que without enough M for the qued item itself will not use
planetside M for A or E so aside from imports (which can be
erratic) a world with M,E and A production's que
contruction will fill up with M, then and only then will the
planet convert M to E, the E will go into the project until
it has enough and then and only after all that will it make
A from the now surplus E and M.

So while waiting for lower order planetary resource demands
to be fufilled high order resources will not be refined from
those lower order resources.

Special Case: A of E Hard crash

In situations were you do not want to use focus or mandate
for some reason, or want more targeted anti stalling,
pulling your E or your A forward in que will unstick them
planetside. Since early structures need very little A or E
this can be very effective, especially if you are expecting
a blockade. This is also the main advantage of size 8
colonizers as they get CCPMEAF+PCap to stop the stall.
Remember than A only takes 4M workers so you can do more
before you need to C.

Special Case: You are swimming in loot

In situations where you are flooded with GB reserves pulling
the spaceports forward will greatly increase your planets
download speed as on a planet without the fully grown
population for the multipliers spaceports will be much
faster on even tech than production onsite although they get
this speed only at the cost of an already present surplus
elsewhere. Just make sure you cover your spaceports with
enough cities to keep them running or your just slowing
yourself down.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 02:13:41 PM by YAHG »

YAHG

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Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2011, 02:38:41 PM »
Strategies for fast growth:

Push Chokes and Backfill:

After your initial expansion, you will have the whole of the
Galaxy scouted. Look at the systems as the spaces in which
empires could possibly be and what kinds of borders they
could have based on peoples starting positions, the
positions of the systems themselves, the positions of the
remnant systems.

Inevitably some systems will be at natural choke points,
natural borders, have the best planets or are just flat out
more than halfway on the way to your enemies.

Try not to be too forward with the systems that you claim,
you don't want to make people feel like they are being
pushed into a corner. You want to guide the expansion of
thier empire into a smaller area than yours will be in. If
you are next to thier home system they are more likely to
see your moves as agressive and attack you, but if you are 2
or 3 systems back you are making them more likely to expand
away from you and into each other.

Take 1 or 2 strong planets in those key systems, like 24+
slots, maybe 23 or 22 if it is an amazing spot to have a
strong presence in. The 26 slotter is a great target and is
fairly comon. Use the AJTP and then build the bussard
colonies on your HW and they will just fly at the targets.

Take the target worlds as PRO worlds, you only want about
3-5 of them.  On the low end of the count you can afford to
pull the ports forward. Once you have your intial claiming
worlds built up you can either place more in other key
systems that you didnt get in your initial spread, or fill
in your border systems with a PRO/shipyard mix. Planets with
low slots will be faster with shipyard's than PRO. While
shipyard worlds are faster to construct than PRO worlds they
rely on resources built elsewhere and are then subject to
stalling in blockade situations and also do not help your
economy when not in use.

After you have your econ and production is set up in your
intended border systems you will be able to defend a large
uncolonized area from other player's attempts to expand.
You can fill this at your leasure with a powerful tech core
(recommended) or even more econ.

World Per System Diaspora:

After your initial colonization is mature, AJTP on the
strongest planet in each open system extending out from your
homeworld with a PRO world. If the system doesnt have a 23+
planet you can just skip that system. The PRO worlds are the
seeds of your future empire. Keep going 1 world per system
and claim as many systems as you can without stalling your
econ. You will be able to slowly add tech worlds or more
econ in systems with a PRO world easily. If you are someone
who likes haulers then this strategy plays well into a
hauler economy.

You will not get as strong map control with this general
strategy compared to assertivly taking map control with your
secondary expansion wave, but this requires a lot less
flight time and can thus ramp up faster.

« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 02:16:07 PM by YAHG »

YAHG

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Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2011, 02:38:53 PM »
Attacking Openings/ Game progression:

Whatever strategy or combination of strategies you employ
there will be distinct phases of economy and tech which lead
to various openings for attack without destroying your
economy and chances for victory with them.

Chem Rush:

This is an early tactic that can be pulled off within the
first 30m. The chem-rush requires lvl3 chemistry to unlock
the chemical bomb, a powerful weapon that does damage only
to a planets population and leaves the buildings intact.

You will probably need at least 8-10k tech rate to pull this
off or really good luck with your unlocks. A single 19+ tech
world will get you there quickly with 4-6 gensci. With
chemistry at lvl 6 a raw size 12-15 chemical bomb can easily
do 5-7k population damage (1 population damage kills 1k
population). If you can get 3 lvls in ship construction (to
give you a larger fighter hull for more speed and
cheapness), propulsion (to give you engine speed), and
particle physics (gives you more powerful muon weapons and
also helps bussard engines); you can build a lean bussard
driven rack mounted chemical bomber than has .003+ Accel
killing about 5-8M population a volley.

If you think that most fully developed planets
pre-sociology(upgrades city population) will RARELY have
more than 140M population, we are talking 140/5=~28 volleys
to kill thier better worlds. Thier crummy worlds will likely
still be in the 40-70M range. Building 20-30 of these ships
off of a finished PRO world at lvl 5 meta and econ won't
take long. If you managed to get your particle physics and
you have the money for escorts, some Muon armed bombers with
comparable accel will make excellent escorts.

Rolling over your enemies developing systems or even thier
homeworld in a surprise attack while leaving all thier
buildings ready for your colonizer is a powerful way to turn
an early game lead into a win. Grabbing an extra galactic
capitol can be extremely helpful early game.

If you unlocked chemistry with your racial traits then you
can do this rush much earlier without the need to trial and
error the 100k links to chemistry from gensci.

Pre Antimatter Rush or Fusion Rush:

This is a later assault that tends to often also employ
chemical bombers, as ships at this time of the game don't
tend to do enough damage to take out planets quickly with
regular weapons.

When people are trying to push thier econ and get a lead on
you that way, or are trying to vastly out tech you, you can
hit them pretty hard around the tech 5-6 level before they
can get the tech to push thier boards out and unlock thier
late game designs.

Alot of people like to get all thier things in order and
unlock thier endgame ship designs,  people like me for
instance.

Fighting wars in the early game is very taxing on your
economy and can crimp you as the game progresses. A fusion
attack can be less crippling than a no tech attack but it
will still hurt your econ badly if it fails.

The idea is that you attack them with your ~fusion designs
while they have little to no army and are waiting on higher
tech ships to be enabled. Thier army is usually a hold over
from much earlier in the game or pirate repellant so your
newer ships can beat them along with your numbers
advantage.

If this attack fails and they repell it with AM+Comp designs
then you will be in a tough spot as AM+Comp designs tend to
be be much much stronger with the far denser power+control.

Post Antimatter Assault:

The safest time to attack without crimping your economy
comes around 7-8 Meta-GenSci-Econ. Pump your other techs to
the levels you need to unlock your ships around this tech
level and go at them. Hit them as many places at a time that
you can hit them hard enough for thier planets to die
quickly. Incorporation of chemical bombs into these assault
teams will speed up your blitz attack allowing you to sweep
through un-defended territory.

Tech fill:

If your enemies do not seem overly aggressive you can just
fill in your empty worlds with tech worlds and vastly
outstrip your enemy in tech. This can lead you into the
defensive, and if you make too much tech at once your econ
will crash leaving you very vulnerable. If you succeed your
ships of the same scale can easily be 2-4 times more
powerful than thiers.

Econ/Tech:

Mixing tech and econ together or even just going all
balanced worlds for your backfill will let you afford to
keep pumping out ships from your border nearly constantly.
Balanced worlds are very good at renovating tech after
gensci levels as they rarely have more than 2T on them.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 10:25:13 PM by YAHG »

Gleming

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Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2011, 07:43:37 AM »
I am new to this game, played a few matches with my friends but found it to be very difficult even with just 1 'easiest' AI. From reading your post I have found many issues that I was having, especially with the terrible things I was doing to my economy, not to mention that I didn't even know about the Galactic Capitol in the homeworld. Thank you so much for this very descriptive guide. I do have some questions but I don't know if I should ask them here or just look or ask somewhere else but thank you for this. Maybe if I get better we can play a match?
Can it be better? Of course it can.

YAHG

  • Guest
Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2011, 02:25:44 PM »
I am new to this game, played a few matches with my friends but found it to be very difficult even with just 1 'easiest' AI. From reading your post I have found many issues that I was having, especially with the terrible things I was doing to my economy, not to mention that I didn't even know about the Galactic Capitol in the homeworld. Thank you so much for this very descriptive guide. I do have some questions but I don't know if I should ask them here or just look or ask somewhere else but thank you for this. Maybe if I get better we can play a match?

Thank you for responding. After hundreds of thread views,
You are the first person to actually thank me for the effort
I put into this.

Ask away, it is as good a place as any. I am on steam as
"YAHG" and skype as "yahgoa". My current skill level in
terms of AI in VG is a little less than "Medium-Cheating",
I've won that match-up once and it took a long ass time,
most of the time I get crushed. If we run into each other
I am down for some Multiplayer, you can be as good as you
want, but I am not a fan of pulling punches.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 02:27:51 PM by YAHG »

Gleming

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Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2011, 05:56:41 PM »
Hi, I play vanilla and am just now going to try out some of your suggestions. Some of my main questions are about research and weapons, which weapons are good for fighting different sizes of ships,  small/medium/heavy etc? does the stealth hull stack with the stealth field defense additively for 100% miss chance? You mention the research triangle I believe but I don't really know how I should research each and how much, is there a good order to research them in, should I just research GenSci for a couple levels and then metallurgy? and whats the big deal about muon cannons? Thanks for your reply, I see your post was about a month old and wasn't sure you would ever see my reply.
Can it be better? Of course it can.

YAHG

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Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2011, 09:39:27 PM »
Hi, I play vanilla and am just now going to try out some of your suggestions. Some of my main questions are about research and weapons, which weapons are good for fighting different sizes of ships,  small/medium/heavy etc? does the stealth hull stack with the stealth field defense additively for 100% miss chance? You mention the research triangle I believe but I don't really know how I should research each and how much, is there a good order to research them in, should I just research GenSci for a couple levels and then metallurgy? and whats the big deal about muon cannons? Thanks for your reply, I see your post was about a month old and wasn't sure you would ever see my reply.

The stuff about ship design I can't really answer completely
without a cascading ship design and meta strategy analysis
(which I am working on on the side).

By the tech triangle I mean you Que up the three techs in an
order, use loop research mode on them and turn on the auto
researcher check box. I usually go econ-meta-sci, so I can
at first get my HW GB trade unlocked and then ramp up some
econ into more tech. 

Since by default the gain in cost per level is 100%,
leveling a single technology repeatedly will take longer and
longer per level while only giving you the same geometric
gain to that specific category.

If we teched econ up extra a lot, that would play into a
focus on smaller amounts of planets developing at the same
time but developing very fast due to high GB trade.

If we teched Meta up extra a lot, that would play into a
more powerful lateral economic growth push out. We can build
much more powerful factories to build our other factories
with and accelerate that way.

If we push tech up extra a lot, we would be focusing on
getting more total levels out of out time-tech buildings.
This in an of its-self alone isn't that useful but it does
help the other sides of the triangle.

Leveling them up evenly will in most cases get us the most
total geometric bonus to growth rate across the board.
Assuming equal tech costs at the same level (this is not
true) 2 levels in one tech (1+2) is the same cost as one
level in all three techs (1+1+1) so the difference is 1 tech
level or 30-40% (tech gain is only 30% while power and
health gain are 40% on default).

For the purpose on powering your economic opening I suggest
even teching inside of your tech loops (triangle or square
with sociology unlocked).

Pushing tech for weapons is different because a design
focused on a single weapon or weapon type will only benefit
offensively from that upgrade.

Muon Cannons do incredible damage while also being 50% armor
peircing and using tiny amounts of ammo and have the great
benefit of tech synergy with bussard engines. They do fire a
lot slower than rail guns and they do need power to fire. 

Using them as escorts for chem bombers or as defenses
against enemy chem bombers is very powerful until people can
afford to field large numbers of ships with beefier armor /
repair / or shielding.

Muon guns do very well in the small weapon large rack mount
setup, as this mitigates their slow firing rate and their
50% armor pierce and the low ammo consumption leading to
lower ammo storage for competitive firing times even with
the increase in space set aside for power generation.


Daedalus turned me on to a redesign of my early chemical
raider
. The change he suggested was to lower the
chemical bomb size to .25 and pump the rack to fit the
space. We worked on it a bit in the lobby chat and we ended
up with a design with 100% more dps, lower cost all around,
same speed, a little less hp (still could armor to previous
level with same costs), same continuous firing time, and
only a 20-30% hit to range (range was very very low to begin
with as the ship is meant for scales 1-5 or so). After
lowering the weapon size we also could afford a smaller
bridge and crew quarters giving space for a larger ammo rack
to compensate for the smaller weapon side storage.

I took his same approach to a Muon bomber escort with the
same results, the only weak point of this change is that it is
much less alpha and is then weaker to shielding, but in its role
as anti chemical-raider/fighter screen it preformed much better.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 06:11:27 PM by YAHG »

Gleming

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Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2011, 03:44:06 AM »
Wow, that was a very informative reply! Thanks for helping out a noob. I used what I could get out of your advice in the original post in a game against 4 easiest ai's (I couldn't beat 1 before) and I easily mopped the floor. I kept the game going however just to see how my endgame would be, the AIs never got 1st place in any empire stat after around 7 mins. I never moved away from 4.25 scale muon cruisers at any point in the game, finally I built a 500 scale carrier for them, and then found I could put 2 fully loaded carriers in a third carrier :P . Eventually thought the AIs almost got ships with as much health as my cruisers (at this point my 4.25 cruisers had around 2M health) so I destroyed them all with a warp jumping group of carriers and weaponized colonizers.

What broke my game though were the endgame pirates after all the AIs were defeated (I was playing to see what a Ring World looked like) and their rampant aggression of every system, since I had colonized every planet. So in response to the attacks I went to the system screen and said build on all selected, selected every world and said build 30 of my cruisers. This proceeded to send my ships to around 33k in number and cause my game to lag enormously (especially since all my cruisers had a 0.25 attractor on them and a repair beam, see below).  Because my cruisers refused to move or fire at that point, and I lost all of my economic satellites because of Lag+Anti-Matter Gens I used the console to force destroy every ship I owned. Then I rebuilt the economy on the capitol seat planet (50 slots is awesome) trying to follow his breaking of the economy guide, and ended up producing a Ring World.

While the Ring World was awesome, and later allowed me to produce my 1M scale ship I found it incredibly irritating how I could no longer select the star as a warp destination because it would get in the way. So then I used the 1M ship to destroy the main central star and found the explosion to be quite disappointing (It only destroyed about 70% of the galaxy on a 150 system map). So my next series of questions after trying your advice is the following:

  • When is a good time to try and unlock the other techs (given random tech map)?
  • Whats the best way of doing this?
  • How big should your fleet be and what scale ships should you use at what point in the game?

Because Using 4.25 scale ships while they may have been effective in numbers could not protect my systems enough without causing significant lag which starts causing its own issues (Like economic satellites stalling on their resource management or other interesting things). Also I read in another strategy post here somewhere about a guy who made a self replicating miner/salvager ship. I tried this but I couldn't find a way to make it work. There doesn't seem to be a way to make ships auto construct another ship after it itself is made and once the storage fills up on the ship it refuses to create the other materials using on board fabrication facilities in order to supply the necessary electronics and Adv Parts. I tried to solve this by putting an export dock on it to create a steady drain on excess storage but they don't seem to work in systems that don't have a planet in them such as asteroid systems. What ends up happening is my ships go to the asteroid system, start mining and constructing their ship but then eventually one of the resources that it is producing over fills the storage and it can't produce anymore of the necessary resource and sits at say 38% done and a full resource bay.

Was the guy using the GA mod? Because I heard that the GA mod had individual storage types for each resource which would solve this problem. Also have you used GA or would recommend it? And does the GA mod add additional AI settings on the blueprint screen because I found the AI settings to be helpful but limited. For instance I couldn't set my muon cruisers to focus ships without shields for instance, or my carriers to still be aggressive but not auto un-dock when engaged.

Also, how much damage does a chemical bomber need to do in order to be effective (as I look up and see you made links to your design, which is nice of you, also the links don't work, but I got to the page anyways. During this game I also found out how broken repulsors and attractors are. For one thing I think repulsors were just bugged or something because I put them on my cruisers so that they could more easily stop ships that are engaging them from flying past by enmass stopping them and then pushing them back with the fleet to maximize DPS in an engagement were they meet by flying at each other head on. What ended up happening was that because it was a 0.25 scale repulsor with a 4.0 Rack it had some issue (especially because repulsors have a 4 second continues effect) that the ships would actualy pull enemy ships in with the repulsor and then keep them inside of the fleet unmoving. It was incredibly effective.

Eventually however I decided that I wanted more damage than just physics shenanigans so I replace the repulsor with an attractor and instead put a seconds .25 muon cannon under the 4.0 rack so that I had 2 .25 muon cannons with 4.0 racks. This is what probably started to break the game. At the point in the game when I built the 33k ships around 32k of them were versions of this craft with a matter generator. So every time there was an engagement there would be about 200+ of these ships using two max speed muon cannons an attractor, repair beams, and having to handle ammo and fuel regen all at the same time. It first stopped displaying the muon projectiles but then When I got lazy and just sent about 5k ships to defend a system it just stopped working. The ships however were incredibly effective. 1 ship could wipe a 500M population planet in about 2 seconds so I never felt that I needed to upgrade.

  • Basically, when should I have scaled up my ships and by how much?
  • How should I defend my systems from pirates other than with fleets of hundreds of small cruisers (processor death)?


Thank you again for all your help!
---Holy crap Text Wall

P.S. I think I found the issue with my Mining ship, I believe that I had the mining rate slightly above the metal fabricator rate so the storage filled up with ore and since ore can't be exported it stopped working once their was no room left for the fabrications to take place. I'm going to try making very very small mining ships so that They can swarm faster, like scale < 0.5 (although I don't know if the fab bays or the export dock have a minimum size like the colonizer does.
-- Yes after testing I was able to get the miner to reproduce itself, however their does not seem to be a way to automatically make them attempt to construct them-self on repeat when they themselves are constructed so I would have to tell every singe new miner to start manufacturing on repeat one of itself. That would take forever so even though it is slightly less efficient I'm going to make a second ship which does the creation and fabrication while the miner only hauls and turns the ore to metal.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 03:53:34 AM by Gleming »
Can it be better? Of course it can.

Worm

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Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2012, 03:14:02 PM »
Thanks for posting all this info. I arrived at some similar conclusions to some of your trait analyses before I found your thread but found many more tips I had not discovered yet, and your production queues made me re-evaluate how I built my worlds.

JamesSten

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Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2012, 06:25:17 PM »
Hello I have only been playing against the AI at this point for two weeks was getting my butt handed to me but after reading through the forums and finding many valuable tips I have been able to change that so I am no longer being wiped off the map. Someday i hope to play on-line. Not sure as I really don't get ship design yet but I have been working on that. Took me long enough to figure out the scale thing. I want to say thank you for putting this together as it was the most informative post and I have refered back to it many times.
I have one question but before I ask I play mostly the GA mod. I also play the trait Depressed and I have noticed that if I play with the build Que

Homeworld Build up:

For Eusocial Que up: YCCCCCCCMMMMEEEAAFPPPPPP
For Depressed Que up: YCCCCCCMMMEEEAFGGPPPPPPP or
YCCCCCCMMMMEEEAFGGPPPPPP


and put a Space Port as the first item to build it starts filling the Galatic Bank a couple of seconds after it is built. My question is this. If you build a space port first does this pull the matrials you have on your home world and slow down your ability to build up your world?
For example  if I go 
For Depressed Que up: PYCCCCCCMMMMEEEAFGGPPPPP
Now I also noticed if I rearrange it so it is more like PCMGCMGCMCMCCYPPPPPFEEEA The Galactic Bank starts kicking in even faster and by the time the build Que is finished I can have close to 1k metal already stored. I have also tried mixing the E A and F into the mix sooner.  Seems to help the food bank if you go PCMFGCMGCMCMCCYPPPPPEEEA.
Does not seem to help the E and A at all as if I put them any sooner in the build Que it just reduces the stored metals.
I understand you want to build your cities first for the population to grow as soon as possible but from a starting point does the Galatic Bank uptick of resources pull from what you have stored to start with and hinder your build? or is there something else? Is it that your recently built structure starts providing resources right from the get go?
Not sure if this is the right place to ask but seems many people talk about what you should build and in what order. Seemed to me a good place to start playing with how things work  :)

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Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2012, 06:53:01 PM »
I want to correct my statement as I just ran a test to make sure and I am incorrect it is not metals which I obtain by switching around the the P M F A but mostly F which I built 3rd in my Que and by the time the planet build was finished I had almost 3k food.  Question still stands Does the order have any direct effect? Seems the opening moves are really important so just wondering really.

YAHG

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Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2012, 06:23:50 PM »
The GA mod is different than when I posted this. The most
important change for queing is that buildings no longer take
labor to construct. This means that you can really power out
tech worlds much faster than you could in VG without the
need to front load with cities for the labor boost. GA also
starts your home world with ~1350 resource generation or so
as opposed to the ~800 that you would get with my suggested
home-world que for VG. 

The lack of a labor requirement for structures gives you a
simpler colony growth mechanic; Early P gives you much
faster GB draw feeding into your MEACF to GB push back to
finish other colonies, while an early MEAC doesn't need any
labor support to keep the Y online giving you much more
leeway with C density early in your Que as your MEA can run
on partial population requirements for an output penalty as
opposed the on/off nature of the Y. Overall coupled with the
higher starting MEA output relative to cost gives you much
faster early growth rate and the opportunity for far faster
expansion. 

In the new GA mod you also will need a lot more food
production overall to support your fuel conversion (I have
yet to explore He3 generated fuel). 

The new fuel requirement for construction makes bussard
colonies practically mandatory. With the colonialism trait
the half scale colony ships make using E-power a very
inexpensive way to bypass the fuel mechanic until you need
thruster based combat ships.

As per the VG I find that if I hold the metal mandate during
the ramp up (buildings,scouts,initial colony wave), I will
have a metal surplus developing right before the colony
ships start coming out. I have edited my strategy to use
scale 7.5 colony ships for a 2slot colony giving massive
resource savings.   

The opening moves are important and by opening I mean first
30m or until you can expand continuously/orbital
fabrication. The faster you can get to the point where you
can divert enough resources to an attack force without
significantly slowing your growth the better your game will
be.   

You don't have to click fast to do this, all you really
have to do is keep your GB from crashing too hard or from
being too full, while maintaining an effective balance of
economic factories and tech worlds. The game awareness of
when the other guys will likely attack will come as you play
more games, and ship design is mostly just a way to turn the
tides if you and your enemy are mostly equal in other
respects.   

The general strategy of where to expand to control the map
is far more important vs human players as the AI will tend
to just colonize whole systems based on proximity with no
apparent concern for map control.   

JamesSten

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Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2012, 05:11:51 PM »
Hello YAHG.
   First I want to say thank you for responding to me.
This information is going to change how I start off my games now.
It is very helpful to know that it is the labor cost though I
should have guessed that. It also expains why I have been having
trouble keeping up in the VG.
   I have been looking at the Colonialism trait and it makes
alot more sense now. I just need to work on getting better at
building ships. Which raises another question. When you run a
multiplayer game do you build your ships in game or do you
pre build them and then import / export them into the game?
   It seems like I take forever to get a ship designed
I either have power issues or control issues or I can never fit
everything I need/want into what I am building. That or some other
peice / part is needed but it never really tells me what it is
I need. It just states subsystem missing. Don't get me wrong I
can build some great ships it just takes me awhile to get
everything working. Pause is nice when playing an AI but
a multiplayer game? Guessing there is no pause so its know your
parts and peices?
   You have given me alot to contemplate as I had not
considered the human element of who holds the high ground
so to speek and mostly been playing in a spiral galaxy against
AI who do seem to just expand out from thier starting point.
Ah the days of my 3D chess games. A real Chess board not a
computer game. Guess the question I have to figure out is then,
How do you create a choke point in space? Guess I will have to
find out some day. :)

YAHG

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Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2012, 04:11:51 PM »
   I have been looking at the Colonialism trait and it makes
alot more sense now. I just need to work on getting better at
building ships. Which raises another question. When you run a
multiplayer game do you build your ships in game or do you
pre build them and then import / export them into the game?
Over the course of time, I designed/stole blueprints that turned
out to be really useful, I import those in every game. It has gotten
to the point where I might have to design a new ship every few
games.

   It seems like I take forever to get a ship designed
I either have power issues or control issues or I can never fit
everything I need/want into what I am building. That or some other
peice / part is needed but it never really tells me what it is
I need. It just states subsystem missing. Don't get me wrong I
can build some great ships it just takes me awhile to get
everything working. Pause is nice when playing an AI but
a multiplayer game? Guessing there is no pause so its know your
parts and peices?

Amen to that. In GA on the fly ship building is more difficult due
to the larger number of parts and the whole required subsystem
missing. Tweaking preexisting designs is usually pretty fast, swap
out a weapon type or engine/generator type and then scale the
supporting parts to balance.

This gets easier the more that you do it. Knowing what you want
out of your design can help alot in being able to make it quickly.

How do you create a choke point in space? Guess I will have to
find out some day. :)

With flat galaxies with remnants on, there can sometimes be walls
of remnant systems blocking off safe regions, being in control of the
systems near the edge of the safe path to the rest of the galaxy
can give you map control.

Usually map control is about gaining a stronghold that allows you to
block your enemies expansion, force him defend everywhere if he tries
to rush colonizers around it or generally gives you more territory by
drawing the lines of battle unevenly in your favor.

Azalrion

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Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2012, 04:50:10 PM »
Amen to that. In GA on the fly ship building is more difficult due
to the larger number of parts and the whole required subsystem
missing. Tweaking preexisting designs is usually pretty fast, swap
out a weapon type or engine/generator type and then scale the
supporting parts to balance.

If you let me know when this happens and what subsystems I'll add in some better warnings for whats missing instead of just required subsystem is missing.
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mmavipc

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Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2012, 12:32:21 AM »
What does ACTP mean?

Edit: nevermind, there's a typo in the glossary so I didn't find it with ctrl+f. Anyone ctrl+fing this, it means Auto-colonize this planet.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 12:54:33 AM by mmavipc »

Powermaniac

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Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2013, 06:33:06 AM »
YAHG if your still around and playing Star Ruler is this guide still relevant to the current version of the game?

lutze

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Re: Multiplayer 20-50 systems: An Intermediate Primer and Crash Course
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2013, 12:24:05 PM »
I've noticed the efficient trait no longer affects ammo or fuel storage, so it's not quite a solid a pick.