Author Topic: Where is my bottleneck?  (Read 1816 times)

JonBrave

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Where is my bottleneck?
« on: November 04, 2014, 01:56:38 PM »
I seem to be bottlenecking now on building big ships, and I'm not quite sure why, or what I can do about it?

I'm up to Research #9-ish on everything.  I'm trying to build size #1024 ships.  OK, my size 50 construction yards may not be up the job, but much the same with #1024 shipyards (and I've tried them all over the place): it needs to accumulate some 10M metal, say, and it takes a long, long time doing it (I see progress going up reasonably to start with, then slowing right down).  I have millions in the galactic treasury.  As I understand it, at the end of the day the shipyard (or planet) building has to get its resources through the planet plus galactic bank.

Does that ultimately mean its an inevitable problem, as my builders won't be able to gather materials fast enough?
Does it mean that you must always spread you ship building everywhere, because any one place is going to bottleneck?

Darky

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2014, 03:04:43 PM »
Your import rate determines the rate at which you can recieve resources from the Galactic Bank. Simply spam Spaceports on a spacious Renovate Only planet (researching that science that improves Spaceports also helps, haven't played in a long time but I think it was called Economy Science) and then get a tiny (like size 12) station with nothing but dry docks on it. Labor might as well be free from the orbital station and the small size means you won't be having issues labor at all
especially if you built a Shipyard to develop your colony more quickly to begin with.

JonBrave

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2014, 05:18:38 PM »
Hmmm, the only bit I admit I have not done is "spam Spaceports".  I will look into that.  I am dubious about how long it will take a "like size 12" dry docks to build a #1024 ship though.

I guess you're saying I have to understand which planet a dry docks is attached to in order to know where I need lots of spaceports?

seronis

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2014, 12:47:56 AM »
Once you get into building those huge ships you will not be building them on the planet.  The planets sole job  will be space ports to feed an orbital construction station. Your planet thusly needs 1 or 2 cargo buildings and the rest as many space ports as you have available slots except for enough cities to supply the workers.

Your orbital stations basically cheat when it comes to gathering resources from the planet. They dont have a bottleneck for transfer rate other than their own cargo space. So your orbital station needs a ton of cargo space (to increase rate materials can be taken from planet) along with a construction bay big enough to supply 'labor' at a rate you're comfortable with.

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antibor

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2014, 04:33:27 AM »
I am dubious about how long it will take a "like size 12" dry docks to build a #1024 ship though.

I guess you're saying I have to understand which planet a dry docks is attached to in order to know where I need lots of spaceports?
5 to 10 minutes. :D
Unless you are using the mobile scrap exploit or asteroid mining based construction, your dry dock should right now orbit a planet.  The space ports of that planet are channelling the galactic bank resources to the planet (the more the faster) from which planet then the dry dock sucks it up. As the importing speed of space ports increases faster than their storage capacity you are better to have some extra cargo space (even if the space port could import 10K, if there is only 1K storage place on the planet, it will only import that much).

Darky

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2014, 07:16:16 AM »
Hmmm, the only bit I admit I have not done is "spam Spaceports".  I will look into that.  I am dubious about how long it will take a "like size 12" dry docks to build a #1024 ship though.

I guess you're saying I have to understand which planet a dry docks is attached to in order to know where I need lots of spaceports?

No, I am saying that, while I don't remember specifics, dry docks give an inordinate amount of labor for their size so you should simply focus on your import rate (also cargo as others have mentioned as I have forgotten) on the planet

JonBrave

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2014, 03:06:57 PM »
Wonderful advice from you all!  Nice to see some activity in this forum.

OK, I think (hope) you have identified my flaw.  (I don't let myself try this stuff till the weekend...)

I had understood I needed to build at dry docks, not planets.  My dry docks are randomly distributed at planets, probably based on a "Build on best" click at the time.  I only use inbuilt planet types, picked by Governors.  I haven't deliberately selected any spaceport-type planet governor (is their an inbuilt for this?).  I haven't intentionally built any cargo holders on either the planet or the dry docks (I see the docks come as 2x4 construction and 1x4 cargo).

Does all of this sound like it might explain why construction is proceeding so slowly?  ::)

seronis

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2014, 06:47:23 PM »
Does all of this sound like it might explain why construction is proceeding so slowly?  ::)

Lesson learned.  Thats the important part =-)

Anyways yeah just that little bit of manual tweaking and you'll be set. Remember to set the governor to "Renovate Only" before you tear down stuff to build the space ports. If you forget this step then the governor might decide to rebuild what was originally there and undo your changes.
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JonBrave

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2014, 01:01:48 PM »
Hmmm.  Needless to say, I couldn't resist an investigation before the weekend.

I took charge of a planet, made it very space porty (OK, only 9, but that's about 9x what it was before), put in some cargo slots.  But it didn't seem to make any/much difference :(  My ship wants 9M metal.  It gets going OK.  But then it's ticking over at about a couple of K per second (very rough).  That seems much like before.  I have Ms & Ms in the bank.  (I think my empire shows overall demand for Metal as 0, it's still accumulating.)

It feels like I've got everything but I'm missing something.....

seronis

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2014, 02:59:32 PM »
Feel like uploading your save file?  Im willing to take a look and give specific advice if you can upload the file and let me know which planet has the issue.
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JonBrave

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2014, 03:09:16 PM »
Very kind!  But I'd have to clean up the situation.

Tell me one thing: I can't get any resource much faster than, say 3k/sec, for 9M that's going to take ages, should I be getting much, much faster build rate than that?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 03:10:54 PM by JonBrave »

seronis

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2014, 06:38:32 PM »
Really no clean up would be needed at all. I wouldnt need to play the game to completion. Just look at the one planet, its building selection, and the stats on the construction station.

Also you should consider an orbital construction yard as able to build any ship INSTANTLY.  The labor they generate per second is so high per scale unit of the construction bay that they will build anything you want insanely fast. An orbital station can also INSTANTLY transfer materials from the planet to its own cargo stores.  Thus the bottle neck is purely a factor of how much cargo space is on the orbital station, and how many resources are currently on planet.

It does seem odd to me that your entire planet (with almost exclusively space ports built on it) is only transferring 3k units of materials from the galactic bank per second.
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antibor

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2014, 07:39:17 AM »
At level 9 you should have around 2K per space ports and one city per ten other buildings (rounded up of course) should provide enough workforce. Even a size 15 planet with the capital (if you keep it), two cities, 11 ports and one cargo storage should import 8K metal per second - more when the electronic and advanced filled up.

JonBrave

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2014, 02:18:46 PM »
Thank you both.  I do think my situation needs further investigating!

@seronis
I'll be ready to upload something tomorrow, if you're kind enough to look at it.

@antibor
Although that sounds like an improvement on my current rate, at 8k/sec won't it still take 1000+ seconds for my 9M?  But that's only a 1024-scale.  Don't Achievements call for 10,000 & 100,000 size ship?  8k/sec is nowhere near enough!?

JonBrave

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2014, 04:27:52 AM »
@seronis
I have uploaded a save.  I have cleared all construction queues.  Look at "Jealo V" (12 x Space Port 8, not the biggest I know, but convenient) & "Dry Dock r14 40096" (size 250).  Set off a build of a "Dreadnaught Shield (1024)".

Notice that neither planet nor dock wants to start with full cargo.  Don't know if that matters, but anyway the starting cargo will be minimal compared to the full build costs.

Damn it  >:(  System just filled up with pirates, so now I'll have to go find another one.....  This is why it takes time to prepare!

OK, try "Kampaca I" (16 x Space Port 8 ) + "Dry Dock r14 39991" (size 250).

Note how build speed starts OK and tails off badly.  By the time it gets to, say, 50% complete I'm bored waiting for it to finish.  What if the ship were 10,000 or 100,000 in size??


antibor

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2014, 09:02:38 AM »
Thank you both.  I do think my situation needs further investigating!

@seronis
I'll be ready to upload something tomorrow, if you're kind enough to look at it.

@antibor
Although that sounds like an improvement on my current rate, at 8k/sec won't it still take 1000+ seconds for my 9M?  But that's only a 1024-scale.  Don't Achievements call for 10,000 & 100,000 size ship?  8k/sec is nowhere near enough!?
There is nothing wrong with your save.
They might call for such ships. But not at level 9. :-) Practically your production increases by around 70% each level (limited by depleting ore). To make it more tangible at level 12 the potential output is nearly five times as much as at level 9. Trade is increasing by 40% so at some point it is more beneficial to switch the planet from import to production, but maybe not yet.
Yes, it would take 1000+ seconds at that rate. However. After two minutes, there will be enough advanced material for the ship. From that point it will be around 11K. After four minutes the electronics will be also be completed, then the metal import will continue at full speed, say 23K for Kampaca I. Approximately 9 minutes from start and you will have the ship.
PS: At level 29 10K is fighter scale.  ;)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 09:22:23 AM by antibor »

seronis

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2014, 11:56:29 AM »
1. planet had 'no governor' selected.  As stated above you should choose  "renovate only" governor. That way the planet will upgrade its spaceports, cargobays, cities, etc without your direct intervention and start transferring materials from the galactic bank faster on its own as your tech increases.
2. looking at the space station it completed its entire 'labor' requirement for your 1024 scale ship when only 16% of the resources had been collected from the planet. This just means labor is not a bottleneck in the least for the scale of ships you are building.
3. the planet had 16 spaceports with a net trade capacity of 24k.  This is far above the 3k you mentioned and looking at the economy screen the planet WAS successfully transferring the full 24k it was claiming to be able to transfer.  Starting a new construction job on the space station and pausing after 2 seconds showed roughly 50,000 units of materials had been applied to the ships construction meaning your space station is fully utilizing the planets transfer rate.  This means there is no problem at all with the planets setup. Its efficient and being fully utilized.

When the ship your station is building hit about 35% 'complete' it had fulfilled its requirement for advanced parts (because it needs the fewest of these). When this occurs your planet itself is still utterly empty of advanced parts because it had been transferring everything to the station.  So for about 10 seconds it will be refilling its adv part reserves till they are at capacity again.  During this time the station isnt collecting advanced parts so that small portion of your planets spaceport capacity wont be used for building the ship.  As soon as the planet as refilled its advpart reserves its entire 24k capacity will be bringing in only electronics/metals and the stations production rate goes back to max.  The same slowdown will occur as the ship no longer needs additional electornics.

All in all everything on Kampaca 1 is perfect (after the governor is set)

-Edit-

One thing to note.. You should reverse the construction bays and cargo bays on your orbital station.   You need between 2 and 4 cargo bays PER construction bay in order for the station to be able to use materials as fast as it produces labor. 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 12:02:13 PM by seronis »
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JonBrave

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2014, 12:06:15 PM »
@antibor
Whoa, can you speak more slowly, please :)  Are you saying:
1. I'm just at too-low (space port, in current situation) tech level, and that a couple more techs will cause appreciable speed-up?
2. In an earlier post, you said "a like size 12" dry docks would do #1024 in 5 to 10 minutes.  I have built a size 250 dry docks.  Am I way out of scale wrt what size dry docks I need?

JonBrave

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2014, 12:24:31 PM »
One thing to note.. You should reverse the construction bays and cargo bays on your orbital station.   You need between 2 and 4 cargo bays PER construction bay in order for the station to be able to use materials as fast as it produces labor.
1. As I had said earlier, I think, the dry docks blueprint is the default one, 1 cargo + 2 construction.  You're saying that it would perform better with 2 cargo + 1 construction?

2. I know about the Renovate Only.  I had re-configured that whole planet just to have many space ports for you to examine.  If you care to look at all the other docks dotted round my Empire, you'll see how they're attached to random planets, often with little space ports, at that's typical of my current situation.  Knowing what I know now, isn't that why most of them just crawl along when I had them all building 1024s, and I'm going to have to be a lot more careful with my docks placement and attached planet's space ports to make them a lot more like Kampaca I ?

3. Is there a "space ports" Governor (I don't think so)?  Or, (and I was going to ask this anyway) can the list of Governors with their production preferences be modded to add a new type who does the desired space port type building?

seronis

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2014, 12:56:03 PM »
1. Currently the bottleneck is your tech level and the rate your spaceports are importing from the galactic bank. So swapping to 3-4cargo per 1construction wouldnt perform better NOW..  but it means your current spaceport at scale 250 would not be the bottleneck for much longer than it will now.

2. yes orbital construction needs a dedicated spaceport planet to be efficient.

3. Yes governors can be modded. I have a governor mod which makes the default ones a LOT more intelligent in building placement. Its in the mods section of the forums. I dont personally have an  "Orbital Efficiency" governor but one can be created as easily as any other.  If you decide to try out my mod make sure you grab the one thats listed as being for the vanilla game. I have two versions posted and one is meant as an add-on to Galactic Armory mod instead of being for the vanilla game. I should probably update it to add a basic 'spaceport gov' option. That wouldnt need to be as complex as a fully 'Orbital Construction' governor.  My end goal for that latter would be one that also manages constructing and renovating the orbital station for you instead of only managing the planet.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 01:04:32 PM by seronis »
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JonBrave

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2014, 04:40:04 PM »
Thank you very much!  I intend to investigate your "Galactic Armory" at a future date, learning vanilla first!

antibor

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2014, 05:22:39 PM »
@antibor
Whoa, can you speak more slowly, please :)  Are you saying:
1. I'm just at too-low (space port, in current situation) tech level, and that a couple more techs will cause appreciable speed-up?
2. In an earlier post, you said "a like size 12" dry docks would do #1024 in 5 to 10 minutes.  I have built a size 250 dry docks.  Am I way out of scale wrt what size dry docks I need?
1: Yes. Or you just do not need these big ships at this point. Look at the pirates at Jolo (I think), twenty size 50 ships might have performed better than a single 1K.
2: So far (I still do not consider myself very experienced) on level 10 I have been using size 100 (nearly all external) docks with a single size 4 construction bay, the rest being devoted to storage and electronic/advanced production. Using stock Dry Dock size 40-50 would be enough right now but there is no reason to size them down. If you start creating your own dock design, you will notice that neither construction bays, nor storage actually needs control beyond what is available within the hull and you might experience with external mounts to find the ideal benefit/cost rate. In other words you can get similar capabilities from a size 10 custom design than from a size 50 stock one.

seronis

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Re: Where is my bottleneck?
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2014, 10:34:50 PM »
Its also worth considering that 20 ships at scale 50 will cost SIGNIFICANTLY fewer materials (and thus be faster to build) than a single scale 1000 ship would be.  Also a single scale 1000 weapon can only spread its total damage across all of 1 target.. while 20 scale 50 ships can spread their damage per second across 20 targets.

The tech called megaconstruction is very important when you start trying to build huge ships. Its tech level is what determines the penalty applied to large things making their cost go up faster than their size.
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