Author Topic: A few questions/Suggestions  (Read 2691 times)

DeathMist

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A few questions/Suggestions
« on: January 11, 2011, 08:23:11 AM »
1. About the movement mechanics... (yea i know another comment about this) I actually really enjoy the movement.. But alas how the actual ships look doing it look horrendous. I understand that this is somewhat realistic but its going to put a lot of players off. I myself find i can't look at ships in flight because of how they look.. it looks so odd flying backwards. I would actually suggest taking time to find out how to keep the current system of movement but whilst being player friendly. An idea would be to loosen up on how much it takes for them to slow down.. Or hell even better you could introduce a system similar to jump drive but instead of just teleporting you move to said star a tad faster without inertia being such a huge effect.. a game that comes to mind is Freelancer.. with the whole star lanes etc etc.

2. Tooltips!, I don't think there are enough :P and if there are its really vague, lets face it someone new to the game will pick this up and see that there are no tooltips and drop it and won't look at the encyclopedia. Examples to fix this would be adding better descriptions to current things. Most players will see when they start researching they are losing resources fast for no reason. Little do they know the structure upgrade cost is whats going on. It would be nice to have a structure upgrade cost when doing research that calculates total amount of planets and how much upgrading needs to be done.

To also add to this above paragraph I think that there should be an extra part in the blueprint screen which would allow for descriptions of the ship. These descriptions could then appear as a tooltip when you go to make the ship in both the planet screen and the right click menus.





tl;dr version:

Ranked in order of most importance to me.

  • More ToolTips / More Descriptive.
  • Auto-Clean up of ships that are gray.
  • New Types of movement whilst still keeping current system in place.
    eg.Star Lanes that can be constructed. Possibly allowing haulers and what not quick access to trade with other planets.
  • A few more ideas:
    As mentioned in another thread, auto updating for ship blueprints for ships that are in a queue already.

Note: This wasn't meant to sound like a DO IT THIS WAY THREAD. It was meant to sound like just some friendly suggestions from a newish player who has heard multiple comments about this game good and bad.

I am also going to recycle this thread so i don't keep constantly making new ones
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 08:07:50 PM by DeathMist »
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Blind_Rifleman

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2011, 08:37:24 AM »
Quote
1. Not sure if there is a way or not. But in my opinion them little gray ships that float around if you have a failed blueprint or a ship that is just inactive need to go away....... say after an hour MAX. At the moment i'm on a 150 system map and I've just about pwnt the AI in the face, I'm 11 hours in and now my computers starting to get a major slow down due to how many inactive ships are floatin about.. I mean i don't want to have to create a ship just to get rid of them. That's just silly. So there should be an implementation of a timer or something on them to just.. get rid of them some how. Maybe a explosion or they just disappear. I would be fine with the latter.. It also clutters up system and makes them look ugly D:

 Space decays gray ships. If you owned the ship, you can click on it to see the subsystem breakdown and watch as the HP falls. Armor is always going to take any damage first, so ships with huge armor values will take forever to decay.

 It is not always a bad thing to have gray ships hanging about, as you can salvage the ships and get metal, or analyze the ships and get the blueprint. I prefer to make my own blueprints, so I go for salvaging when I see gray. Salvaging is very efficient if you include an export dock on the ship as well, as the export dock will send any materials in the ships cargo hold straight to your galactic bank.
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Steiner

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2011, 08:41:34 AM »
1.: Ships do receive 'space damage' when disabled, the problem is that this seems to be a fixed number. So, while at the beginning of the game it works good, the more healthy your ships get the longer it takes for them to go boom. The most practical way, I think, would be that they receive a percent of their HP as damage, adjusted in a way that they survive like 30 at max minutes or something before being destroyed. Maybe even with a setting that could be set by the player at game start.

2.: I'm not overly happy of ships flying backwards to de-accelerate myself, but this mechanic will most likely not be changed. The DEVs said that the whole movement system the game uses is based on this and any 'hacky' ship systems that would try to avoid this would result in weirdness in movement prediction et cetera.

3.: Yes, I agree. For new players, additional tool-tips would be helpful, like if you hover over entries in your layout overview and it tells you what EcoStore, Alpha and other things are. Maybe even a help window you can open in the blueprint tab (or alternatively a link to the stellarpedia) where people can get help about ship design.

4.: I think the new patch will introduce some camera changes. Might be mixing things up, tho.


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DeathMist

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2011, 08:19:55 PM »
I agree with you stiener it would be a more practical way. Percentage base is an excellent idea because ships staying there for 11hours of game time sucks..

@Blind_RifleMan. This may be true however i have ships still there from the start of the game.. so does the computer. Worst is when the computer does it as well... there is this one hot spot near the sun where the computer was mass producing crap. when i went there i lost a few of my early designs so now its just one color, gray.
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wastedfate

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2011, 10:12:06 PM »
As for graying out, it should be a bit of a formula I guess, because I honestly don't salvage, scan, or re-activate grayed out fighters. They should probably disappear quite quickly.

The medium sized ships I scan and salvage, since I usually don't take the time to make new blueprints for disposable ships. They can all disappear after 3 minutes for all I care.

But the collossal ships, that cost alot of resources and time, I re-activate if possible, or salvage them. They should probably stay for about 10 minutes or more. The larger they are, the longer I need to repair them.

So really, the current system works well for massive ships, but we need a short timer for the rest.

I rarely lose a ship of this size regardless of circumstance because I keep the key parts in the center and bulkhead them too, then go repair the broken parts and the ship re-activates.

Profound_Darkness

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2011, 12:14:27 AM »
Assuming the disabled ships are taking up CPU cycles, could do a radius check around the ship and if many disabled ships then space damage is increased.

Alternately... This is based on where the ship is located having properties... space damage out side of a system is rather high (rare for salvagers or other ships to be in deep space).  Space damage in a system is a property of the system based on the number of disabled ships in the system.

Sarnian

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2011, 11:48:00 AM »
Personally, I love to see the ships flying backwards -it adds realism, makes it feel as if you're manipulating real objects in space, not just space-themed icons on a 2D plane and sets the game aside from the rest of the genre.

I think the physics could be exploited more -I'd like to see the relative velocity of ships taken into account so that missiles fired by or at a ship closing at high speed would do more damage due to the extra kinetic energy, though possibly with a greater chance of missing due to the difficulty of tracking and intercepting high speed targets.

We don't need the physics to be so mind-boggling that you need a PHD in maths to work out what's going on, but this could add some interesting new tactics (like high-speed runs through a hostile system to target large structures) and make beam weapons more or less useful, depending on the circumstance.

Blind_Rifleman

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2011, 07:50:54 PM »
May your decay time troubles bother you no more!

From patch notes:
[Changed] Space damage is now percentage based.
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maxi

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2011, 07:39:12 AM »
Adding relativity physics, in a basic form, would be interesting.

ab9rf

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2011, 08:18:59 AM »
Adding relativity physics, in a basic form, would be interesting.
And mindbendingly difficult.  For one, Star Ruler, like most space games, uses the semiomniscient extrauniversal observer paradigm for the player.  This is incompatible at a fundamental level with relativity in that it establishes a privileged frame of reference (that of the player-observer).  To do relativity right you'd have to change that to putting the player at the headquarters planet, with information about events elsewhere reaching the player delayed by speed-of-light propagation.  That goes way beyond simple "fog of war"; players could not have direct control of fleets at all and you'd find out about the results of battles (game-)years after they happened, if indeed ever at all (if everyone died before a message was sent, you'd simply never hear from that fleet again).  (Read Haldeman's Forever War to get a better sense of how interplanetary war might progress in a relativistic universe without FTL travel or communication.)  It also means having to find an inertial frame of reference every time you have any sort of physics simulation.  The math required is substantial, and the computation required would certainly exceed that offered by the average gamer's PC.  Star Ruler doesn't even do Newtonian gravity because of the computational complexity; general relativity is a thousand times worse.

The only games I've seen that even approach the question of communication delay have been a handful of battlefield simulators, and even most of those assume the commander can both see the status of every unit at any time, and issue any order to any unit at any time and have that order received and understood without fail.  Anyone who has ever worked in the field knows that's not simply not true.  (Of course, being realistic about this would makes such games far more frustrating to play, to the point that most people probably wouldn't.)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 08:21:49 AM by ab9rf »

maxi

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2011, 10:49:57 AM »
You're right. I forgot about it (great, learning academic physics and still forgetting about basics of physics). It is impossible task (yet) for computer to apply general relativity in real time. You're also right about that such game with general relativity would be frustrating. I didn't say precisely what I meant. I want to only to add basic phenomenon of it: the increase of the mass when speed of a ship reaches the speed of light.

Foraven

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2011, 11:56:17 AM »
You're right. I forgot about it (great, learning academic physics and still forgetting about basics of physics). It is impossible task (yet) for computer to apply general relativity in real time. You're also right about that such game with general relativity would be frustrating. I didn't say precisely what I meant. I want to only to add basic phenomenon of it: the increase of the mass when speed of a ship reaches the speed of light.

We open a huge can of worms if we add that to the game. Like when does "reaching the speed of light" happen and how the ship's AI handle it. The current AI just thrust the whole way, having more mass would mean it's just wasting fuel trying to push a ship that won't go any faster... Also cause the problem of slowing down that huge mass when it's time to stop. In fact relativity is quite fuzzy about the details of what and when it happen...

Edit : I'm surprised nobody ever theorized a ship moving fast enough would eventually turn into a mobile blackhole...
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 12:01:11 PM by Foraven »
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ab9rf

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2011, 05:07:40 PM »
Edit : I'm surprised nobody ever theorized a ship moving fast enough would eventually turn into a mobile blackhole...
Probably because it doesn't. :)

Thy Reaper

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2011, 05:18:13 PM »
Probably because it doesn't. :)

If you pump enough energy into an object, its effective mass expands its Schwartzchild radius to beyond its own size, so an excessively fast ship should black hole.

jonuts

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2011, 06:47:41 PM »
As velocity approaches C, mass approaches Infinity. So really, if you got close enough to the speed of light, you'll create a blackhole massive enough to disrupt the entire universe. Assuming that it holds true for long enough. I'll just assume it ain't gonna happen in reality. Because I sleep safer at night knowing there aren't blackholes flying through space at practically the speed of light, destroying everything in it's path at the speed of gravity...however fast that is.

Quote
Read Haldeman's Forever War to get a better sense of how interplanetary war might progress in a relativistic universe without FTL travel or communication.

Don't waste the time reading that book. Just look back at naval history before radio. If a ship disappeared somewhere on it's own, you don't know if it was enemy action, weather, or they just flat out decided to become pirates, or whatever else. Nothing against the book, just saying sci-fi isn't necessary to illustrate pre-radio naval realities. On the flip side, I might pick up and read the book because I'm out of books :D

ab9rf

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2011, 10:57:24 PM »
Sigh.  It's amazing how poor people's understanding of relativity is.  Please see http://www.weburbia.com/physics/black_fast.html


GGLucas

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2011, 11:00:56 PM »
Quote
Don't waste the time reading that book.

Waste time? WASTE time? It's a great book, you should read it.

And there are way more mechanics at work in sub-light galactic combat than in naval warfare. Tech considerations, for example.

In the 50 years (from the objective reference point, it would usually only be weeks from your reference point) that it takes you to reach the enemy, they could've invented entirely new weaponry. Your race probably did too, but you haven't been there for 50 years.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 11:03:29 PM by GGLucas »

Thy Reaper

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2011, 11:03:50 PM »
Sigh.  It's amazing how poor people's understanding of relativity is.  Please see http://www.weburbia.com/physics/black_fast.html

Yes, it is sad how most people have no understanding of some of the most unintuitive concepts in relativity.  ::)
It's fine to correct people, but don't be so condescending about it.

Foraven

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2011, 11:11:14 PM »
Yes, it is sad how most people have no understanding of some of the most unintuitive concepts in relativity.  ::)
It's fine to correct people, but don't be so condescending about it.

I don't think there is anything intuitive about relativity.
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jonuts

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2011, 12:32:01 AM »
The fact that some parts of relativity could possibly be LESS intuitive than the rest of it boggles my mind. The only reason I'm not certain relativity itself is the ravings of a madman is because your average loon makes ALOT more sense. Yes yes, the basic concepts are easy enough to learn, but frankly, NOONE can come up with this sort of shit. I pity the poor fool that intuitively understands relativity. Their brain is far too screwed up to function as a person.


GG Lucas, I stand by my statement, and it really wasn't meant against the book. History itself also has examples of fleets that set sail and ran into OMGWTF. I pity the first guys to get shot at on a ship by a galleons broadside. Imagine the poor bastards used to cannon duels, then suddenly the side starts shooting shells that EXPLODE. Any considerations for waging war over such a lag time is basically the same as pre-radio campaigns, just taken to 11. For the record, that would make a truly terrible game if you had to deal with that sort of crap :D And I'll probably pick up the book this weekend >.>

maxi

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2011, 06:20:51 AM »
Sigh.  It's amazing how poor people's understanding of relativity is.  Please see http://www.weburbia.com/physics/black_fast.html
Relativity theory is unintuitive and difficult to understand ( the same with quantum mechanics). We live in the world with low speeds (compared to speed of light). Our intuition is working only in this field.

shali8

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2011, 05:03:22 PM »
For all we know relativity could be wrong. Scientists cannot reproduce the conditions of black holes or mass moving at the speed of light. That is why it is called The THEORY Of Relativity.

Thy Reaper

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2011, 05:51:16 PM »
For all we know relativity could be wrong. Scientists cannot reproduce the conditions of black holes or mass moving at the speed of light. That is why it is called The THEORY Of Relativity.

Relativity is not "wrong" in the traditional sense, but it is "wrong" in the very technical sense. We already know of energy levels and densities where it doesn't produce the correct result (namely at the quantum scales), but on energy levels it was designed to describe, it's about as perfect as you can get.

Asrrin

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Re: A few questions/Suggestions
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2011, 09:29:13 AM »
For all we know relativity could be wrong. Scientists cannot reproduce the conditions of black holes or mass moving at the speed of light. That is why it is called The THEORY Of Relativity.

Relativity is as wrong as Newton's law's of gravitation.  they aren't wrong, but merely approximations.  We still use Newton's laws because they produce precise approximations for most situations not involving high energies or velocities approaching c.  Likewise, we will continue to use Einstein's laws for things not requiring high densities even if we discover a new ToE.

And highlighting the "it's just a theory" is especially wrong.  A scientific theory is nothing like what the layman's definition of theory is. 

Here is an excerpt from a webpage that sums it up nicely:

Quote
A theory in its technical usage is something that is more or less verified or an established explanation accounting for known facts or observations, like the theory of relativity or how evolutionary biology is a theory.  In modern science the term “theory”, or “scientific theory” refers to a given explanation, consistent with the scientific method, of empirical observation.

    a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein’s theory of relativity.
    Mathematics: a body of principles, theorems, or the like, belonging to one subject: number theory, group theory, etc.

In non-technical contexts, theory is used as a synonym for hypothesis, to mean an untested idea or opinion. A hypothesis is a conjecture put forth as a possible explanation of phenomena, which serves as a basis for empirical science to uncover some fundamental laws.

    a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
    contemplation or speculation.
    guess or conjecture.

These definitions are quite different from one another.