Author Topic: Mind Sappers  (Read 4167 times)

Starmarshal

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Mind Sappers
« on: March 05, 2011, 09:15:35 AM »
Using this design, http://starruler.blind-mind.com/designs/view/57
I noticed the mind sapper making better than 2/3 of the total kills. I watched it skipping from target-to-target without a cool-down against ships from fighter sized to size 130.

I hate to say it because it would hurt my most awesome design, but there should be some sort of cool-down based on size and scale of the weapon, but always the same regardless of the target scale, maybe equal to the mining beam.

Another possibility is to give the target crew a strong chance of recovering and regaining control after a few seconds instead of leaving a line of dead drifting ships.

I actually like the second option better.

Superking

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2011, 06:30:45 AM »
computers
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Deantwo

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2011, 10:08:56 AM »
computers
what do you mean by that?  ???

well... haven't really used the Mind Sapper... so i don't really know how it work...  :-[
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Starmarshal

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2011, 10:19:05 AM »
He means computers can help ships recover from mind sappers. He probably thinks I'm being wiped out by sappers. Not so. I don't design the AI ships, though, so the suggestion is meaningless. I just think it's rather pitiful that a single battlecruiser can wipe out 30 ships in a single joust and 20 of those kills were from one mind sapper.

The mind sapper concept seems to me, using MMO language, like a de-buff weapon - not a superweapon.

Firgof

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2011, 10:37:26 AM »
It would utilize the debuffing concept if the power you use for weapons wasn't the same you needed to run the ship on.  Granted, a perfectly fine ship that gets hit once by a power draining weapon that should otherwise be able to recover should probably be able to be turned back on by the crew conceptually.
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Superking

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2011, 10:54:52 AM »
I suspect that computer cores are not affected by mindsappers, so designs that use them are immune. if this is indeed the case, a human player can counter someone using mindsappers by just sharing control between a bridge and a computer core.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 10:56:43 AM by Superking »
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Firgof

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2011, 11:07:26 AM »
Specifically:  They affect the Control stat, irrespective of what's giving Control.
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Blind_Rifleman

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2011, 11:09:43 AM »
I suspect that computer cores are not affected by mindsappers, so designs that use them are immune. if this is indeed the case, a human player can counter someone using mindsappers by just sharing control between a bridge and a computer core.
However the farther you bias towards computer cores, the more vulnerable you become to boarding parties. So it really is personal preference weighted against your situation. You could have double the required control to help prevent both situations, but that just falls under how much redundancy you wish to add to your ships.

EDIT: Quote added due to Admin Ninja
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Superking

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2011, 11:23:09 AM »
Specifically:  They affect the Control stat, irrespective of what's giving Control.

so.. the only counter is having lots of redundant control?
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Firgof

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2011, 11:42:21 AM »
You are correct.
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Superking

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2011, 02:07:36 PM »
the weapon description suggests it specifically attacks crew member by making them spasm. but computers dont spasm! I think you should correct the description so that when I see the orange beams hitting my computer controlled ships, I feel secure in the knowlege that everything in the fluff is OK
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Firgof

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2011, 11:10:03 PM »
I will when I can find a link between humans and machines that even begins to make sense given the technologies that unlock it :p
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Jubeeder

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2011, 04:49:45 AM »
Their effector entry includes this line:
Code: [Select]
CanAttack: CanAttack, BasicEffects::hasCrew

I thought that meant they can only attack ships with crew? If so a computer in a ship that also has a crew wouldn't be immune, but a completely automated ship would be (and better have internal defenses).

Deantwo

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2011, 05:01:56 AM »
I will when I can find a link between humans and machines that even begins to make sense given the technologies that unlock it :p
would it be more right to just change the weapons name to something like "Electronics Interferences Beam" or something... and write that it just interferes with the electronics on the target ship?
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Steiner

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2011, 05:41:31 AM »
Meh. I never liked the Mind Sapper, especially not how it is "balanced". The Reverse Inductor has style, tho, but not that thing. I agree to whoever said that it should rather be a "debuff" weapon than anything else.


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Superking

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2011, 07:59:59 AM »
making it just kill crew would be cooler
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Deantwo

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2011, 08:06:52 AM »
making it just kill crew would be cooler
and it's also make it a weapon that is as deadly to Crewed ships as Boarding Parties are to Computer ships... maybe yeah... but then it does need a better counter then just over filling your ships with crew...  :-\
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colonyan

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2011, 09:19:48 AM »
For now until it gets update, we could assume
AI ship control still holds one or two human. With minimum personnel.
Or
carrying the human brain(s) as surveying module.

Space faring live brain. ha ha .. ::)

ADD: Why not make mind sapper disable crews/control instead of killing it.
        Combined with boarding party will be pretty mean ...
         You stun and take over = profit  ;D
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 09:49:42 AM by colonyan »

Firgof

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2011, 01:23:41 PM »
Without control, the power generator will shut down, resulting in a domino-effect shipwide death in 10 seconds.

If crew die or are temporarily removed, the Bridge will shut down, resulting in no control, resulting in the above.
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XTRMNTR2K

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2011, 01:53:36 PM »
Without control, the power generator will shut down, resulting in a domino-effect shipwide death in 10 seconds.

If crew die or are temporarily removed, the Bridge will shut down, resulting in no control, resulting in the above.

I think the point about killing crew instead of reducing control is that it won't work on purely computer-controlled ships.

That being said, I am pretty damn sure I never used the mind sapper, not even once. :-[

Paldin

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2011, 01:54:25 PM »
If it kills crew instead of reduces control, then it would have the same effect as boarding parties on computer controlled ships because their crew value begins at zero and any reduction will automatically disable the ship.
What needs to happen is a flag which says if the ship can take the damage or not.  Something to the effect of...
If (crew > 0) then "damage control stat" else "do nothing"
Rather than the current mechanic where it simply reduces control.

However I believe the simplest solution to this dilemma has been suggested already where we simply change the flavor text of the weapon to:
"This device causes interference in the control systems of a vessel.  It may potentially disable the bridge or computer core due to data abnormalities in the ship's systems.  The overall effect may disable a ship entirely."

On the other hand, it sounds like the main complaint is that the weapon is overpowered.  In just that case, either the damage needs to be reduced or the AI's desire to have excess control needs to be improved.
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shali8

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Re: Mind Sappers
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2011, 05:06:58 PM »
Just make it so that it disables the Bridge for a certain amount of time. If that is possible.