Author Topic: Realistic Scale Mode  (Read 2383 times)

Hazzard

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Realistic Scale Mode
« on: March 30, 2011, 06:37:08 AM »
The following suggestion is based on this exert from another forum post.

Quote
Imagine if ships ranged from 0.001 scale to 1 scale, and all the planets were shrunk a bit, and then the distances between everything was multiplied by a factor of say 10; we could do that, but then you can't build huge ships :P

Now the reason I bring this up is because this was exactly the idea I had for a variation on the vanilla game.

Would it be possible to introduce Scale Realism Mode where we do exactly this. Blow up the scale of the entire galaxy so that the game (in terms of scale) resembles something similar to Orbiter?

Now with a direct port of Orbiter's scale it would be impossible to control the game effectively. Things would be entirely too small in relation to planets. However there are all sorts of clever tricks that can be introduced to make this easier, especially with the interface.

The game already relies quite heavily on icons to do most of this interpretation of small objects, but with some modification and clever use of intelligently scalable LOD's (similar to Homeworld 2's method) you could achieve a system that can simulate grand, realistic scale and maintain usability.

You won't have make realistic distances between star systems mind you, but currently that is scalable anyhow so isn't really an issue.

In terms of creating insanely large ships. Currently I think seeing ships or stations that dwarf the planets that made them is, quite frankly, ridiculous and very jarring for me personally and because scale is relative I would argue that it actually diminishes the users appreciation of these vessels size. I suspect that much more appreciation can be had from a larger scale game like this, even if the ships appears smaller in comparison to the current vanilla game.

Thoughts?

Foraven

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Re: Realistic Scale Mode
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2011, 01:18:07 PM »
Look at my mod then (FRB), already did that.
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Hazzard

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Re: Realistic Scale Mode
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2011, 02:08:27 PM »
Where might I find this mod? I would love to test it!

Foraven

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Re: Realistic Scale Mode
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2011, 02:53:59 PM »
Where might I find this mod? I would love to test it!

Well, drop on the modding forum or look there : http://srdev.blind-mind.com/mods.
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eRe4s3r

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Re: Realistic Scale Mode
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2011, 03:25:19 PM »
I assume what he actually wants is this

A shift of game scale : display scale

Basically - he wants a 0.01 ship be a 0.0001 ship and a scale 1000 cruiser a scale 10 cruiser (in visual sizes that is - from a gameplay standpoint that "new" scale 10 ship is an "old" scale 1000 ship.

I wondered a while now how to best do this - the problem is that i don't want to change the whole game. I just want scale 1000 ships have a in-game scale of a scale 10 ship - so that they will remain smaller than planets at (mostly) all times.

Not sure factor 100 size reduction of ships is even enough for this.

(Or a factor 100 size increase of the universe but that'd cause zoom and clipping issues ,p)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 03:29:55 PM by eRe4s3r »
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Foraven

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Re: Realistic Scale Mode
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2011, 03:30:50 PM »
Not sure factor 100 size reduction of ships is even enough for this.

I did it by making stars and planets larger. It's not without it's issues, but at least ships needs to be VERY large before they look bigger than a planet, let alone a star.
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Hazzard

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Re: Realistic Scale Mode
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2011, 03:35:20 PM »
Hey I checked it out. Not entirely what I was thinking.

I was thinking more along the lines of this ;).

http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/gallery.php

Firgof

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Re: Realistic Scale Mode
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2011, 03:52:30 PM »
Even one system at Orbiter's scales is truly massive.

You'd need to proceed to throttle back on how much engines output and whatnot as well.
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Foraven

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Re: Realistic Scale Mode
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2011, 04:14:14 PM »
Hey I checked it out. Not entirely what I was thinking.

Well, orbiter is really nice, but not made with thousands of spacecrafts moving around in mind.
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Hazzard

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Re: Realistic Scale Mode
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2011, 05:57:08 PM »
No I understand the limitations of the engine, but I was thinking something closer to orbiter...

Obviously not quite as realistic as Orbiter though ;).

eRe4s3r

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Re: Realistic Scale Mode
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2011, 06:12:41 PM »
I did it by making stars and planets larger. It's not without it's issues, but at least ships needs to be VERY large before they look bigger than a planet, let alone a star.

Yeah but making everything larger has far reaching consequences, i am more talking about a visual tweak in the current scale system. As you discovered making stuff larger has impacts on bullet speeds, rotation speeds, orbit speeds, not to mention the clipping and zoom issues that come when its a very large galaxy. All of this needs to be adapted to larger planets/suns (not to mention the systems need to be larger, which means star to star distances become larger).

A simple factor 100 down shift in ship scale would be enough to achieve "realistic" scale (that, and massive slowing, by factor 100, of the planet orbit and ship orbit speeds) Weapon ranges and all that can remain the same.  ;D

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Tkins

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Re: Realistic Scale Mode
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2011, 07:34:49 PM »
Why not do both? Increase orbits, planet and star size by 10 (you can still get 1000 system maps without clipping) and decrease ship size by 10.

Ranges will need to be modified as well as acceleration.

eRe4s3r

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Re: Realistic Scale Mode
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2011, 07:40:13 PM »
Indeed but as i mentioned, i only know how to increase scales of planets (ie map) i don't know how to even go about reducing the visual and "data" scale without affecting the numbers in the blueprint editor (i mean - i want a scale 0.01 ship to be smaller than it is now without it being something other than scale 0.01 so that current layouts still work)

Well maybe some mods will include this in their features at some point.

Reduction of orbit and rotation speeds would then still need to be 100 though while engine and ranges would need to gain.. ehm, a lot.. it sounds like a fairly huge project to balance that ;p
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Foraven

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Re: Realistic Scale Mode
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2011, 07:45:46 PM »
Yeah but making everything larger has far reaching consequences, i am more talking about a visual tweak in the current scale system. As you discovered making stuff larger has impacts on bullet speeds, rotation speeds, orbit speeds, not to mention the clipping and zoom issues that come when its a very large galaxy. All of this needs to be adapted to larger planets/suns (not to mention the systems need to be larger, which means star to star distances become larger).

I would have preferred tweaking the ship's apparent size, just did not know how to do it (and still don't, not even sure we can mod it). I had already messed with system's scale, and increasing planets and stars wasn't that much trouble. Did mess with the star's gravity though, so planets and everything else did not orbit at insane speed. Seem to work fine, but did not test it with really large galaxies yet. Haven't experienced any visual glitches with the larger stars and planets though.
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Nodachi

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Re: Realistic Scale Mode
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2011, 11:20:43 PM »
Won't adjusting the model's scale in the shipset's model.txt file work? I imagine that by changing it you'd have to re-do all the Impact and Firing points though. I'm just guessing though, I haven't messed with that part of the game yet. ;)

Superking

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Re: Realistic Scale Mode
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2011, 02:13:49 AM »
I like being able to see the units  :-[
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Hazzard

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Re: Realistic Scale Mode
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2011, 02:15:10 AM »
I could be wrong but I think you can only really scale up. I believe the developers have pushed the floating point limits to the very edge. You can really notice it with very small scale ships where the camera begins to spas out and at times won't even show the model at all.

It would take a little bit of work to scale everything up, I agree. I don't think it would be a simple case of just making everything an order of magnitude bigger. As said it would require weapons tweaking, speed and pacing and some AI behavior changes... but I don't think (for a technically savvy person, of which I am not) very long.

magichicken

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Re: Realistic Scale Mode
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2011, 09:53:11 PM »
I agree with the people in this thread arguing for a smaller scale. The fact that ships can easily be the size of planets really breaks game immersion. I would greatly enjoy any mod that fixes the problem.