Author Topic: Support Ship Weapons - Missiles need balancing  (Read 1349 times)

dmaiski

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Support Ship Weapons - Missiles need balancing
« on: February 03, 2015, 04:29:21 AM »
after 30+ hours of game time, i quite enjoy star ruler 2. The diplomacy, influence, and planet building system is AMAZING, and quite involved. I also had fun making a vast variety of ship designs, but this led me to stumble upon what i fins is a major flaw in the game...

Missiles, more specifically missile support ships.

For support ships missiles are the first last and only weapon you will ever need. They have double the range of rail guns and lasers, superior armor penetration, a high chance of first strike lethality, and although the higher resource cost, you will kill the enemy long before this becomes an issue.

Things ive tested in sandbox:
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Missile support ships + carrier vs Rail/Beam support ship + carrier:
Both approach in sunlight: Rail/Beam carrier regularly dies before managing to kill even a single missile boat
Rain/Beam carrier jump in via FTL on top of the missile fleet: Missile fleet takes some losses, but still wins in the end (usually with 25-50% supply left over)

Missile support ships + carrier vs Even mix support ship + carrier:
plays out much the same as above - a few more missile boats die

Missile support ships + carrier vs Rail/Beam support ship + Flying Armor Blocks + carrier:
Although this successfully depleted the carriers ammo supplies due to a mix of high penetration missile damage and the carriers main guns, the Rail/Beam support ship carrier was destroyed.

Reactive armor variant:
did not noticeably effect survival time

definitions:
Rail/Beam support ships :
equal mix of :
Size 10, single layer armor, 2 beam(16 hex), 3.5 sub light acceleration
Size 10, single layer armor, 1 Rail Gun(34 hex), 3.5 sub light acceleration

Missile support ships :
Size 10, single layer armor, 2 missile(20 hex), 3.5 sub light acceleration

Flying Armor Blocks (25% of fleet when used):
Size 1, All armor, 6 separate crew quarters scattered internally, 3.5 sub light acceleration
to absorb weapon fire

carrier (this is my main battle tested warp carrier):
200 size, 104k supply, 450 support capacity
weapons: 3x 6 damage rail guns, 2x 16 damage rail guns
Armor: single layer reactive external, single layer reactive internal, partitioned

gallery:
http://imgur.com/a/owKsS
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 04:35:28 AM by dmaiski »

GGLucas

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Re: Support Ship Weapons - Missiles need balancing
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2015, 12:07:59 PM »
Sandbox tests only go so far. Our balance is based on real games played between actual players, and missiles are fairly weak in those situations to the point that few people have succesfully used them.

The main thing you're overlooking is that fights tend to last longer than what you're testing, and supply is more important and harder to get by in real games.

If you're confident in your analysis, feel free to come over to one of our Dev-astation Friday games and beat the shit out of us with missiles :D

dmaiski

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Re: Support Ship Weapons - Missiles need balancing
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2015, 04:02:09 PM »
in most games i tend to use (many) 65k or 100k supply ships, and ive never had an issue with running out of supply mid fight.

though i religiously retreat back to a manufacturing worlds after a fight for resupply and repair/refill support fleets
(even if this means that particular ship has to forgo capturing the system)

As long as you have killed 1 enemy fleet with your own fleet, there is no reason to stick around and slog through more. Pulling back your fleet and letting another fresh one take over is a much more effective strategy

:P This was not based on sandbox tests, sandbox tests were only there to support this hypothesis. Its also the reason i was using my capital grade fire support carriers, rather then the lighter sub-light attack ships i use as the bulk of my force

but yes, i guess putting my missile massacre strategy to the test would be a good idea
btw some screens of my current  game using only missile boats: http://imgur.com/a/tUqt2
so far my missile strategy has let me avoid loosing even a single ship :D
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 08:36:31 PM by dmaiski »

dmaiski

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Re: Support Ship Weapons - Missiles need balancing
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2015, 09:19:29 AM »
update:
i think i understand now why some people find missiles weak :P

missiles are by far the strongest weapon in the game, but its only strong on a per ship basis.
on a per supply basis, lasers are the absolute victory weapon :D

500 support capacity of missile ships will easily wipe out 6-700 support capacity of any other ship type

the issue comes when you compare supply per support ratios:
lasers have the least - 50k supply can easily support 2000+ capacity worth of ships
missiles have the most - 50k barely supports 500 capacity

and i just happened to stumble on the golden ratio of supply:support/ship size for my capital ships to use swarms of missile boats to kill/cripple anything before inevitably running out of supply and needing to retreat

disregard my earlier statements, they are only accurate in early game/low support ship production stage
a dedicated carrier with pure beam ship beats missile boat spam, its just that the dedicated carrier dosen't have space for weapons to have enough capacity to carry the number of ships needed to win

(but ill try next Friday, see if going pure missile boat early game works out as a winning or loosing strategy)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 09:32:30 AM by dmaiski »

Brigadon

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Re: Support Ship Weapons - Missiles need balancing
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2015, 06:33:00 PM »
Don't discount the guns. They come into their own later game, but after you research a couple of accuracy enhancements their 'real' dps and supply efficiency dramatically take off.

As the game progresses, you refit your fleets (assuming you can afford it) moving from pure missiles, through lasers, finally to primarily guns with a smattering of other types.

If you look at armor research, this is obviously the tech chain that is clearly present, as both early armor and late armor effectively render lasers inefficient, and 'mid game' shields eventually cripple missile salvoes.