Author Topic: Diplomacy Discussion  (Read 1978 times)

Azalrion

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Diplomacy Discussion
« on: August 11, 2012, 06:56:47 AM »
I know I've asked before, but its been swallowed in the mega thread, so what diplomacy changes would you like to see. Before anyone asks, territory is a big no no and planet and ship trading I've already got working you just don't get it till I get round to writing our new AI and prettify the interface for it.
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crys

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2012, 09:52:16 AM »
i have actualy not done alot of diplomacy in this game, im actualy happly to just let the guns speak =)
im not sure i accepted a single trade in GA or only in SR.

so if you changed diplomacy in GA, you should propably ignore what im going to write.


1. the AI makes alot of trade offers which are impossible for you to accept at the current game time. i guess there is a connection to the resources the AI currently has - which is propably lots in my games because im running cheating AI.
so the AI asks for millions of resources, often goods/lux in the first 10 mins.

2. the AI has alot of trust in the human player - they offered me more then once millions of metal in connection to timed returns from me. - if i cant send thouse resources/sec. the trade is just cancled and i got millions of metals from the ai "for free" -  dont even know if they get angry about it. i guess they shouldnt trust human players so much in trades without consequences, or only if there were multiple successfull trades before.


in general about trade

i dont know if the AI makes good offeres for themselfe or not, i think the offers are more on the bad side for them. so i stay away from trades, to "aid" the AI lol.

i would like to ask for more info about the AI diplo here, if we understand it better/know more we can make better suggestions =)

A. are AI players tradeing with eachother?
B. i know the AI extorts human players sometimes, can you extort them? - never tried.
C. how is the AI valueing different resources? + research/system view.
D. did you add fuel, ammunition trades? <- sorry this is just being lazy on my side.


in alot of other games you can trade tech, maybe this could be an option here too.







Azalrion

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2012, 10:06:56 AM »
Not what I really want to get into in this thread, the AI is separate from this discussion. This about features not getting the AI to work with those features.
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crys

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2012, 10:47:22 AM »
hehe, guess im good with going somewhere else then you then =)


ok here a few possible things to trade with

tech
planets
systems

actualy some things from civ would work too
you could ask another empire to declear war to a 3. party or to make peace with a 3. party
defencive pacts
banishment/expulsion of ships

hope this is more what you wanted? =)

PrawnWonton

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2012, 05:41:10 PM »
For me, diplomacy in these types of games either has to be all or none.  Anything in the middle, or mediocre, always turns out to be a waste of time, and should just be scrapped in favor of constant war, because that is what you will end up doing anyways.

Good examples of diplomacy in games are few and far between, since most games fail hard on the diplo front.  Even the big ones like Civilization and Total War have really shitty diplo (and AI in general, but that is another rant).

For diplo to work, there needs to be a clear benefit to trading with an AI over just conquering it.  This is where most games fail, since there is usually little to no penalty for just taking more land/space for yourself, and there is usually very little time and effort required for blasting an AI to bits.

Let's look at Star Ruler:  During the late game (which usually is around the 15 min. mark, unfortunately, due to exponential research issues), you can wipe fleets, planets and whole systems remarkably fast.  A little bit of trade would hardly be a sufficient incentive to not just take another system.  A player would have to get some tangible benefit he couldn't otherwise get from diplo to make him not do that.  Or at least weigh the pros/cons.

With the vanilla game, I don't see how that is possible, since materials are essentially unlimited, and every tech is researched with lightning speed, diplo is totally irrelevant.  Instead of trying to shoehorn in a half-assed diplo system, it would be better to just put everyone at war, fight to the death, and call it good.

Currently, Galactic Armory is in pretty much the same situation.  However, if changes are made to research and the economy like what are posted in their respective threads, I could see viable diplo options coming about.

Example:  If research actually mattered, and specializing was an option, then gaining access to certain techs via diplo would be great.  For instance, if my empire is focused on energy weapons (because my scientists just plain suck at ballistics research), it would be well worth my time to befriend an AI who is good at ballistics.  Perhaps as long as we maintain good relations and some sort of research/engineering agreement, I have access to certain ballistics weapons, while he can build energy weapons.  Or how about if 2 empires that are both good at energy weapons can combine their research, and collectively build energy weapons several levels higher than what their current research level is?

Obviously, you can substitute energy/ballistic weapons with any tech.  Shields, armor, hulls, whatever.

Something like that would give a player a tangible reason to maintain good relations with an AI.  And losing access to stuff like that would give him pause when thinking about who to go to war with.

Other diplo goodies that might be good incentives:
  • Being able to build ships faster (either via cost decrease or increased spaceport rates), or better (+tech levels) than you currently can
  • Access to race specific hull/module bonuses (like if my racial trait lets me make super efficient engines, I should be able to share that tech)
  • Population affecting things, like big rebellions if you declare war on a long-time ally.  If rebellions are not an option, perhaps worker strikes, where labor on your planets plummet to crap instead, or the shutting down of infrastructure and facilities (all mines stop, or spaceport imports/exports cut off or drastically cut).  Bottom line is, breaking an alliance shouldn't be a trivial thing, and it should have a decent impact on the player.
  • Access to allied space:  Able to build outposts, mine asteroids, etc.
  • Allied fleet bonuses: Combined fleets or ships in the same system get passive bonuses, so attacking/defending together is better
  • Coordinated attacks/defenses: Something along the lines of agreeing that: Hey, in 5 minutes, we meet in system A, then together go attack system B.  Possibly toss in parameters like "bring X number of scale Y and above ships".  Failure to bring the agreed upon ships could incur a diplo hit.
  • Sharing of ship blueprints.  Being able to make ships with modules you don't have the tech for could be a powerful incentive to diplo it up.  This might be the easiest way to implement hull/module sharing, since the end result would be the same as analyzing a wreck.

I dunno. Whatever it is, diplo needs to have some nice hotness to it, or it will be totally ignored, like it currently is.  It will be hard, since materials don't really matter, and there isn't any "money" exactly, and everyone currently researches every tech to max in no time at all.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 05:48:04 PM by PrawnWonton »

MindsEye

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2012, 09:48:42 PM »
Has anyone ever played space emires 5? It has the most wide array of choices for diplomacy i have seen. It was pretty fun to work diplomacy in that game. You could even form a group of allies into a single alliance. If you could mirror that game diplomacy would rock this game.

cause792

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2012, 02:04:53 AM »
Has anyone ever played space emires 5? It has the most wide array of choices for diplomacy i have seen. It was pretty fun to work diplomacy in that game. You could even form a group of allies into a single alliance. If you could mirror that game diplomacy would rock this game.

Yes SE5 was brilliant. Although I tend to let the guns speak, in SE5 the diplomacy was so good I couldn't help but use it. Especially features like when you formed  an alliance with a species that could breath different atmosphere from your home species. that made your colonization efforts much easier at the beginning. I am not sure though how flexible are the SR diplomacy scripts.

Quote
You could even form a group of allies into a single alliance.
I remember the first time I formed a multi-empire alliance an I was just looking and thinking : "I can choose an official flag for the alliance??". It was brilliant with the voting system and population migration ...ahh the nostalgia. Shame the Se6 dropped out of development.
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crys

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2012, 05:51:12 AM »
i thought a little about diplomacy in this game.


i think there is a main question first, how diplomacy should go.

1. it can be either simple diplomacy, which can be done while the game is running - so its "usefull" for multiplayer
2. it can be more complicated and requires you to pause the game, unless you are ready to loose alot of time, which you could spend managing youre empire - this would make the diplomacy less interresting for multiplayer, and it interrupts the gameflow.

Azalrion

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2012, 02:55:43 PM »
Well Prawn, thats what this thread is for we already know that diplomacy needs to be useful and have consequence to be used and thats what this thread is asking, what would you like to see to make it more involved and come to a point where you want to use it, not a discussion on whether its useful or not at the moment.

crys, if diplomacy is too complex to do quickly in multiplayer isnt a major issue players can and will organize things themselves outside a proper treaty system as long as we can give them tools to trade resources, ships, planets, etc.
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PrawnWonton

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2012, 04:22:49 PM »
Well Prawn, thats what this thread is for we already know that diplomacy needs to be useful and have consequence to be used and thats what this thread is asking, what would you like to see to make it more involved and come to a point where you want to use it, not a discussion on whether its useful or not at the moment.

If you keep reading past the first part of my post, you'll see a list of ideas that could make diplo involving and meaningful.  I would have thought the bullet points were a dead giveaway...

If none of those tickle your fancy, I apologize for my failure of imagination.  Rest assured, I didn't write all that out of spite.

However, I'll just emphasize the main thrust of my post:  the existing mechanics of the game pretty much prevent any sort of meaningful diplo.  You could add a million diplo options, and at the end of the day they will be a waste of time.  But, if Galactic Armory can change some of those mechanics, diplo could become useful.

Azalrion

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2012, 01:25:59 AM »
No I read them, I just tend not to respond to actual ideas unless it cant be done, I just wanted to clarify what I was looking for in the thread.
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PrawnWonton

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2012, 07:37:36 PM »
No I read them, I just tend not to respond to actual ideas unless it cant be done, I just wanted to clarify what I was looking for in the thread.

But what are you looking for?  You've only asked for "... what diplomacy changes would you like to see."  Nothing on my list made the cut, so I assume you have a bit more of a guideline in mind than lists of random ideas.

What are the design decisions behind the diplo system?  What kind of experience are you looking to create?  What are some goals you have in mind?  Without the basics understood, there is no way to flesh out an idea in any meaningful way.

Azalrion

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2012, 12:42:47 AM »
I never said they didn't make the cut I just said I tend not to reply unless things are completely impossible.

As for the rest I've already stated what the top level goal is, to provide a diplomatic system is flexible and useful to players and provides meaningful consequences. Each player will have different suggestions on perhaps how the alliance system should be changed, how non-breakable infinite treaties should be changed, how a system of you declare war on me my allies declare war on you system should be added.

We are just looking at what people see as options they really feel are lacking and how and if they might fit into the design we have.
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halfabandaid

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2012, 02:16:50 PM »
First off you would really have to add in trade routes and alliances into the game for diplomacy to really be worth it, otherwise its just static gimme more resources. Also, the act of it not being a trade route is very disappointing to me, because part of diplomacy is having to worry about your physical networking.

Secondly, you need to add some sort of variable that increments or decrements based on what you do with an empire. For example, attacking them gives them a hard decrement, whereas declaring war on their enemies gives you a boon (only while they are personally at war with them). Holding planets in their system gives you a decrement over time, unless you are part of an alliance, whereas it does nothing. Having scout ships gives you a very negligible but present detriment if you do not have shared vision with a race.

If a race is negative with you, they will randomly declare war on you. Destroying your ships/planets or taking planets will resolve the negative amounts of this variable but WILL NOT make you go positive.

At least this is the most effective way of doing this that I see.

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2012, 05:26:51 PM »
Destroying your ships/planets or taking planets will resolve the negative [reputation] but WILL NOT make you go positive.
This specific mechanic has worked well for me in other games, though i've never used it on large scale ones. Think its a good idea
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halfabandaid

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2012, 11:44:01 AM »
Yea, the main thing that I see it being an issue is that it is a wide scale change, that will be an exponential hog, because not only would you have to run relations between Race A and B, but also B-C and A-C. Add more and more, and its more and more processes.

Azalrion

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2012, 11:54:45 AM »
Its not that complicated actually, each empire has an object it contains the relationships for all other empires and each time a diplomacy action is made you just change that value for the right empire. Its no additional process apart from that value change, unless you count the diplomacy manager for the AI which I'm not.
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halfabandaid

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2012, 12:12:12 PM »
Its not that complicated actually, each empire has an object it contains the relationships for all other empires and each time a diplomacy action is made you just change that value for the right empire. Its no additional process apart from that value change, unless you count the diplomacy manager for the AI which I'm not.

I am, which is what concerns me. By itself, or even on a small scale map its not a big deal, but we are talking about a game that has no "upper limit," just a "your computer will become molten slag" limit.

Azalrion

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2012, 01:46:19 PM »
It couldn't get anywhere near that. Its simple really the AI diplomacy manger already exists and already checks what it wants before accepting or offering a treaty, all we'd do is add in a simple get value, if value in certain range yes / no / change offer. Its not process intensive at all just a few simple if checks.

Managing diplomacy isn't computing intensive its balance and feature intensive.
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halfabandaid

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2012, 10:46:57 AM »
But you also are going to have to keep in mind that every action that would make sense with it is now throwing another check, and all of these checks are running simultaneously. For most people this wouldn't be a problem, but I know for me at least, I love setting large maps occasionally that has an 2/3 of the systems be populated with an AI, so as I said, easy to make my computer bubble.

Azalrion

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2012, 12:21:02 PM »
Its not intensive computing wise. Its really not, diplomacy by itself is not an intensive process since its all self contained in a select set of functions all events that will effect the rate are contained within the treaty system and so only happen when a treaty is created or offered. AIs as a whole might be but the diplomacy subset is not.
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MindsEye

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2012, 09:38:31 PM »
I would like to see some kind of relations meter so you have some idea what kind of pacts you can offer or if the ai is getting bored/angry with you.

Some pacts I would like to see such as non-aggression or lliance. Military alliance(they go to war with whoever you do). Different trade pacts and science. These kinds of pacts would benefit both sides instead of simply trade. The ai should consider who you have military alliance with when considering going to war with you. Also hopeful for things like federations to form agaisnt the dominant power of the galaxy. Also you being able to form this in general.

We need to have more information at our disposal. Knowing amounts of resources the ai is willing to trade would make it so much more smooth. Right you have to figure out an acceptable trade ratio and hope they have enuf. Also knowing all the pacts they have going with other empires would be helpful.

Being able to make request and use resources or gifts as bribes. Requests like get you ships out of my system, go to war with someone, ask to buy ships, ask for colonies, and be able to gift things. Having a bar or some kind of information on wether they are likely to accept or reject before you send would end having to redo the pact from scratch.

I think for more advanced stuff like attack this system with me would be awesome.

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2012, 06:39:18 AM »
I think beyond the simple alliance / NAP / ceding stuff what I'd like to see is a basic "trust" principle from the AI.

It could be a simple -5/5 scale, where the AI remembers how many times you've failed/broken a treaty with them.
. Being at -5 trust with them means they think your the scourge of the universe, and less likely to negotiate NAPs / Alliances / LOS etc and more likely to try at first opportunity to wipe your species from the face of the galaxy.

Being at "positive" 5 would be the exact opposite effect, counting how many times you've honored your deals, and where the AI is more willing to ally with you / NAP etc (Note: this would make "0" neutral)

Additionally you could have breaking different types of treaties reduce trust by different amounts, IE: Trade treaties -1, Naps -5, alliances, -10. (I'd also imagine declaring war would reduce trust as well). A simple UI bar could be attached to the nation in the diplomacy or empire screens to keep track of where trust is between the empires.

It *sounds* simple enough, and could help human players make sense of the unpredictability of the AI, but I have absolutely no idea if there's a way to edit that in.

crys

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2012, 12:53:58 PM »
spies
ok some will call it diplomacy, some a kind of war - maybe it should have its own topic (if you think so please move this =) ).

i guess spies could do alot of things, like stealing ships, to destroying ships/planet buildings, spread a plague, influrence politics(diplomacy), steal research/points, reduce efficiency of planets(and theire defence buildings), give vision to enemy systems, maybe attract pirates/remnants.

research can easily be connected to spying - research could offer advantages in spying and or unlock different spy options.

there are alot of spy-systems out there, it can be simple like in MOO, or more complex like in civ. or ac.

i just think if anything is done, it should matter, destroying a fighter ship might sound good, but it will not matter at all for the game.


maybe this thought or suggestion is a bit late, it somehow sounds like you are about to finish youre mod =)

Azalrion

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Re: Diplomacy Discussion
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2012, 02:59:11 PM »
Were looking at espionage. Thats all I'll say at this point.

As for finish, hah! Not even finished a tenth of what needs to be done for 2.0. The biggest thing we've done so far is implement the new tech tree from a gui perspective and a few of my own tinkering projects for features that might just make it in.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 03:00:48 PM by Azalrion »
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