Author Topic: the problem with armor  (Read 1210 times)

crys

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the problem with armor
« on: July 10, 2012, 11:37:15 AM »
unfortunitly im a perfectionist and the way armor works here, forces me to put in 8 of the smallest armor parts in for 1 armor point

this is because the absorb value of each armor part counts when it is finally hit.
there is already a much better explanation about it in this forum so i just going to link it here

http://forums.blind-mind.com/index.php?topic=4459.msg34959#msg34959

maybe it is possible to fix this problem, or not, but i would prefere to have no disadvantages for huge armor parts vs lots of small ones
(i dont speak about nano/shield armor here)

if this "problem" can not be fixed, i would like to request this advantageous way, to use armor for AI ships and remnants ships too.

as a different way to weaken the use of the smallest armor parts, maybe the absorb value could be reduced for smaller armor parts then size 1, but not increased for lager then size 1

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Re: the problem with armor
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2012, 12:00:57 PM »
I'm not sure if GA is using the same logic as the base game, but in the base game the destruction of the first plate marks the entire hit as Armor Piercing. Each time a small plate is hit, whatever damage remains will reach the internal subsystems and the hull.

XTRMNTR2K

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Re: the problem with armor
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2012, 12:02:54 PM »
If you have any more ideas on how to counter this, feel free to speak your mind. We are indeed considering some changes to armor for the next major release of the mod (not the next release), so now would be a good time.

One possibility would surely be to lock the scale of armor plates relative to the ship to 1.0, effectively limiting the amount of armor plates you could use for a layered armor layout, but I'm sure there are many more ways to prevent the more extreme applications of armor layering.

I'm not sure if GA is using the same logic as the base game, but in the base game the destruction of the first plate marks the entire hit as Armor Piercing. Each time a small plate is hit, whatever damage remains will reach the internal subsystems and the hull.

That is actually a good point. I have to admit I didn't know about this. Was this changed in one of the more recent patches? If so, I assume that we did not add this mechanic to Galactic Armory.

crys

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Re: the problem with armor
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2012, 12:26:49 PM »
if it works like the reaper said this problem would be fixed.

im a bit sad that it would reduce the use, of different layered armor, but i guess you cant have everything =)

if it is not working like this, i would have 2 suggestions
1. like in my starting post, less absorb for smaller armor parts, but no increase for larger ones then size 1

2. set a max value for armor parts in numbers - maybe in connection with the max armor size, that you can have.
lets say 2 different armor platings for 1 size you can have for the hull
so a hull with 4 armor points, can have 8 different armor parts

i dont like this point 2 much, it would fix/reduce the problem sure, but its a bit unreasonable - if ppl want to use 32 different armor parts for size 4 armor total, why not, its their decision and option

Azalrion

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Re: the problem with armor
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2012, 01:32:46 PM »
if it is not working like this, i would have 2 suggestions
1. like in my starting post, less absorb for smaller armor parts, but no increase for larger ones then size 1

Thats an artificial limitation though that is not realistic which we don't want too do. Instead we'd rather repurpose armour to provide the decision to use different sizes for different situations.
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crys

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Re: the problem with armor
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2012, 01:57:44 PM »
i dont want to offend anyone, or tell you what todo =)

i would argue here that an armor part size 0,25 is just halve as thick, as an armor part size 0,5.
so the bigger part could resist a larger force without takeing damage, then the smaller one.

like you can break a pice of wood with 2 centimeters of diameter, but one with 4 would get difficult.
will youre attempt damage the wood?

same for an energy source like a beam - the thicker armor would have more mass to dissipate the heat.


actualy its a bit funny at the moment, because we dont know if it works like the reaper said, or not.
so my issiue with armor, could be reversed, that i would like the possibility to use different armor layers lol
just not the accumulated absorb of lots of small armor parts.
 

Azalrion

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Re: the problem with armor
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2012, 02:00:17 PM »
i dont want to offend anyone, or tell you what todo =)

i would argue here that an armor part size 0,25 is just halve as thick, as an armor part size 0,5.
so the bigger part could resist a larger force without takeing damage, then the smaller one.

like you can break a pice of wood with 2 centimeters of diameter, but one with 4 would get difficult.
will youre attempt damage the wood?

same for an energy source like a beam - the thicker armor would have more mass to dissipate the heat.

That's contrary to your suggestion of limiting that resistance above size 1 which is what I was responding too. I'm fine with it working that smaller armour resists less overall damage, but not with that suddenly not happening above size  1. But even then, why would it resist less damage? Its the same material it just takes more damage too break through larger armour pieces, thats what armour resistance is not the force needed but the material's ability to resist that force which is the same as an atom thick as it is at 10m thick.

Edit:

Damn didn't notice my 1k post. Well heres too 1002.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 02:06:17 PM by Azalrion »
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crys

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Re: the problem with armor
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 02:43:32 PM »
ok this is a bit of my fault to make things not more clear, or to mix things up here, and assume things are seen in the same way.

i assumed that the system worked, like in the thread i linked suggested.
which would mean, when a ship takes damage, the first armor plates absorb value is substracted from the damage, then the armor value substracted and the plate destroyed.
then it continues with the next armor plate. which absorbs again and takes damage to its destruction.
this continues until all damage taken is assinged or the armor used up and the dmg assinged to the ships hull/subsystems.

here you can see my issue with stacking small armor plates(im a bit of a perfectionist, so i exploit this feature, but would prefere it not possible/different).
i was searching now for a way to reduce the advantage, of using small armor plates in mass against larger plates of the same size then all the small plates together.


this problem with the stacking of small armor plats, for the absorb values, was commented by the SR staff before.
they didnt want to increase the absorb value for different armor sizes. propably because giant armor platings from size 10k ships would absorb crazy amounts of damage then(or it was something like this - i dont want to search it now)

i guess they finally dicided for the solution "the reaper" discribed above.

my mistake was now, to carry over their decision, not to increase the armor value, without any explanation from me, why it should be like this at all.


now we should find out, if this armor absorb stacking is working at all, or if it is working like "the reaper" said for classic SR

and which solotion or way to deal with armor is wanted here =)